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attention has been drawn to this clip before in various benson-based discussions here.
the tone is so edgy and silver-sharp, the ideas so intricate but crystal clear. i wish i had more of him playing as directly as this.
i was listening to this again just now (after listening to a lot of peter bernstein) and half-way through his solo it suddenly felt a lot like parker - parker playing a ballad. it has nearly the same intricacy and harmonic clarity - and that authority and confidence are there too.
parker has always been my favourite player by a long way. i hear his influence everywhere of course - across instruments and styles - but i don't hear his 'voice' very often (if i can put it that way) - on any instrument.
so i think its amazing that anyone can generate such a parker-esque feel - and i think its doubly amazing that someone can do it on the guitar (i.e. by picking strings not blowing a horn).
i suppose (roughly) its about creating long, graceful phrases, packed-full of notes and accents but always flowing forwards clearly (or something like that)
its amazing that benson can use such an ultra-bright and edgy tone - play in such an ultra-articulate way with every note standing out so strong - and yet produce such flowing graceful phrases.
if i'm right that benson can play with something approaching parker's finesse on a ballad like this - i think that makes benson some heavy jazz musician.
can people hear the parker here?
can they help me find more pure-jazz-benson?
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05-06-2015 05:17 PM
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Definitely. Not many people make that connection but Parker was a huge influence on Benson. Apart from the melodic vocabulary, there's the same broad rhythmic feel that means they still sound relaxed when playing double-time.
For a great overview of GB in that mode, pick up this Verve Compact Jazz release:
http://www.amazon.com/Compact-Jazz-G.../dp/B00000475S
Mostly quintet stuff with Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Billy Cobham and Johnny Pacheco on congas plus a couple of cuts with Jimmy Smith.
Here's Benson playing the first track from that compilation, Parker's "Billie's Bounce":
Last edited by PMB; 05-06-2015 at 07:08 PM.
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Here's something in similar vein (Willow Weep for Me):
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Totally agree. It's ironic to me that so many guys get caught up on "not picking every note" to try to sound more "horn-like", when the guitarist that is closest to nailing the alto sax sound on guitar is Benson.
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+1
Originally Posted by ecj
With mostly picking every note, apart from the obvious stronger time feel, you get far more dynamic control which is where all the expressiveness comes from.
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The reason alot of people prefer slurs as opposed to picking every note because the accents are so much more stronger. Originally Posted by ecj
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I think because folks who use a lot of slurs end up having an electronic sound with a much less varied dynamic range, the effect ends up being the opposite. A lot of the very slurry fusion guys like Holdsworth have very few dynamic accents in their lines. Originally Posted by nick1994
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Originally Posted by ecj
I think that's only true if they're using a distorted/compressed tone.
Otherwise, I think slurring greatly adds to one's dynamic range.
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Whose playing would you point to as an example compared to something like the Benson clip above or earlier Pat Martino records? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Most of the slur-based players I can think of tend to use the kinds of compressed or distorted tones that you mentioned.
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Exactly my feelings as well. I couldn't even think about trying to play without slurs. I also have difficulty appreciating excessive playing without the presence of slurs. Originally Posted by Richb
I also agree with Mr. B about slurring adding to dynamic range, when used purposely to do so.
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I see what your saying, and I'm not particularly extreme about this one way or the other as there are obviously great players do both. Originally Posted by Richb
2 points re: the above quote:
- with slurring sounding more relaxed, I get it - but when you have every note picked with the ease and authority of Benson or Martino it adds a strength and excitement to the sound I like that you can't get slurring. Dif' strokes
- in terms of swing as opposed to even time feels - I gotta be honest, it's very rare I hear a slur player who's got rock solid time when swinging 8th's - if you're comparing them to the best pickers - I'm talking about a lot of the contemporary guys in NY that slur. For all the incredible stuff a lot of these guys can do, when it comes to really swinging in time I'm not feeling it - and that's taking into account the zillion valid ways of swinging 8ths (before, on, in front of beat etc.). Of course, Metheny's got it covered, though his sound is really a healthy balance of both techniques.
There's a print interview with a certain legato Oz guitarist who took a lesson with a certain NY drummer, where the drummer pointed out how he wasn't quite lining up on the grid, and the guitarist is someone we both consider a phenom. I'll leave it at that, cause I'm not worthy of carrying this dude's case to the gig...
Kreisberg's the player who first comes to mind who has mastered both techniques. One of the best time feels going as well.
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Interesting thing about both those guys is that it's not overtly apparent whether they're slurring or picking in terms of the overall sound. With Wes though, is it more that he's doing pull-offs, as opposed to hammer-ons? If so, that's a lot different to your typical modern jazz legato player. Originally Posted by Richb
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Love the playing on Shadow - wonderful guitar playing, though I find the band to be fairly bland by comparison, even corny at times.
The band on Billie's Bounce is fantastic, really cooking. Makes a big difference.
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Though it is not the way Benson picks the tune, my approach to playing Billie's Bounce in this fashion would be to use a hybrid approach with a pick and use of the middle and ring fingers in a 'classical style'. For two reasons. First, I find the "pick every note" with frenetic alternate picking to be sometimes off putting as well as difficult at fast tempos. Second, I think the hybrid approach offers more dynamic nuance to the phrasing.
I agree that the band is more grooving in this clip. Still, not my favorite tune. I think Benson's version of The Shadow of Your Smile is beautiful, but I don't think of it as Parkeresque, but more like a speeded up version of Johnny Smith. But just an opinion. Then again, I have never been a speed Queen...
Though this tune is My One and Only Love, I would have like to hear Benson play Shadow in this style.
Last edited by targuit; 05-07-2015 at 04:29 AM.
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Originally Posted by ecj
this is exactly what i had in mind - its extraordinary that he gets 'the flow' so well and uses such a sharp bright tone and picking style to achieve it
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Originally Posted by Richb
this point about slurs is exactly what i've always thought - and exactly what seems to me to be shown to be wrong by the sort of playing on shadow above. it could not be more sharply articulated - but, better than any guitar playing i've ever heard (i'm a huge jim hall fan etc. etc.) it captures the grace and ease and flow of the great man.
this is such a big deal for me that i've often despaired of the guitar as a jazz instrument (my love of parker, clifford brown, sonny rollins, bill evans is stronger than my love of django, wes and jim hall). i want to be able to articulate everything i play clearly (so i can introduce slurs only because i want to not because i have to) - but when i try i sound more like a typewriter or a machine gun than a musical instrument. that has made me believe i have to go the way jim hall went - and that runs so counter to my musical intuitions that i get very frustrated.
then i discovered benson - and in particular the sort of playing on this clip (not the endless fusion).
i think it shows just how delicate and precise his picking method is that he can produce such legato sweep and flow across banks of uber-articualted 16ths.
and i agree with PMB that - as a matter of fact - parker was a huge influence for early benson. i think he learned the music more through parker than anyone else (and i also believe that this is the very best way to learn the music - but that is a different point) - didn't his dad (who he never really saw) tell him that parker was the man? (i think that's in the long benson interview on the picking thread).
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I guess I should clarify that I'm differentiating players that are mostly slur from players that are mostly picked in this thread. I'm not talking about either McLaughlin or Holdsworth. Anyone who is playing jazz guitar at a high-level these days in a traditional style mixes picking and slurring at some level, except for Pat Martino.
Something like:
Slur/Picking
80/20 - Scofield-ish
60/40 - Metheny-ish
40/60 - Wes-ish, maybe Jimmy Raney
20/80 - Joe Pass or Benson-ish
I think the conventional wisdom is that the top two categories are better for "horn-like lines".
When I listen to the music I think that to my ears the bottom two actually produce a better approximation of he sax-based bebop language, and I think it probably has to do with the greater contrast of dynamics that you can get with pick attack. If you're using a lot of slurs you have to use more electric sound just to get the notes out due to the weaker quality of the hammer-ons and pull-offs, and I think the overall effect changes. Metheny's sound is pretty mono dynamic, which makes it hard for him to ape the kind of runs that Parker would do with that particular ebb-and-flow of dynamics.
Comparing to the Shadow of Your Smile clip, who would be a more slur-based player that you guys think shows greater dynamic contrast? I'm sure there are lots of things I haven't heard.
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"Slur/Picking
80/20 - Scofield-ish
60/40 - Metheny-ish
40/60 - Wes-ish, maybe Jimmy Raney
20/80 - Joe Pass or Benson-ish"
Well done, I'm very impressed, that's a lot of very detailed listening, analysis and studying.
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ecj - i think you're exactly right about the connection between playing lots of slurs / having to rely on heavy amplification /producing a relatively consistent (to my ear - bland) tone. there's such a variety of sounds involved in benson's tone in this clip - and that variety maps onto the variety of tones we associate with the horns (its not the same range of sounds - but its similar in being a range of sounds).
the other aspect to playing in such a profoundly satisfying way is rhythmical dynamism - and i think this can be (rather clumsily) analyzed in terms of the use of different meters (i.e. quarter/eighth/sixteenth notes and quarter-triplets/eighth triplets etc. etc.). for me parker is head and shoulders above the competition in this crucial aspect of the music (louis armstrong is the exception - a big part of why his playing is so exciting comes from his ability to be so playful with this stuff).
even the classic be-bop guitarists - e.g. farlow, raney and pass - never managed to play with meter in the way parker does. all of them play in a style that relies very heavily on eighth note meter. and despite their stellar technique i've always had the feeling that its technical limitations that hold them back. its just fantastic to hear those limitations swept aside with such authority - not just because its wonderful to hear such a perfect be-bop ballad - but also because it shows what can be done on jazz guitar.Last edited by Groyniad; 05-07-2015 at 02:15 PM.
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The man himself playing Parker
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This is marvelous playing by Benson! Originally Posted by Groyniad
But I don't know about this obsession people have with Benson sounding like the guitar equivalent of Bird.
Just playing great on a ballad like Shadow of Your Smile, something Kenny Burrell also did years before GB did, doesn't mean it sounds like Charlie Parker. Bird swung a different way than Benson.
Benson admits he didn't even know how to play jazz when he was going on the road with Jack McDuff in his autobiography.
He was heavily influenced by the guys he worked with in the McDuff band, who were jazz/soul/funk/blues players
playing the Chitlin' circuit, not bebop players like Charlie Parker.
He was also influenced by Hank Garland, who had nothing to do with Bird.
he then said that he hated Charlie parker when he first heard him, but grew to like his music later on.
This was being discussed on another section of this forum, and people mentioned Billy Bean, Tal farlow and this guy, who said his main influence as a musician was Charlie Parker when I spoke to him at a club he was playing at:
Just having great chops doesn't mean you play like Charlie Parker. George Benson has much better chops than Raney ever had, but he doesn't phrase like Bird, he doesn't swing like Bird did, he doesn't play the same types of ideas that Bird did, He never played with Bird, Al Haig, Tommy Potter, Phil Woods, and all the other people Charlie Parker played and hung with, like Jimmy raney did.
Phil Woods, Charles MacPherson, and Sonny Stitt sound like Charlie Parker, but george benson????????????
In his autobiography, he ends the book by agreeing with a fan of his who says that Charlie Parker destroyed jazz.
He then says that Charlie Parker's type of playing is as good as dead in the music of today, even though he says that his influence comes out in subtle ways in the type of fusion that he and his equals play today.Last edited by sgcim; 05-07-2015 at 08:32 PM.
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Jesse Van Ruller is one of those guys like Metheny who can both pick and slur with amazing time over a swing beat (each with their own feel but really great time).
When doing hammer-ons, I think it's easier to hold better time over an even 8 feel, such as latin or rock, than over swing because of swing's staggered way of playing 8ths. The finger motion of hammering-on the note often means the finger collapses on to the fret either slightly before or after the beat (by a tiny fraction) - not always, but it's less consistent than when it's picked (especially if it's a downstroke). Therefore, IMO the lopsided nature of swing 8ths makes hammer-ons even harder still, and more noticeable if they're ever so slightly out of the pocket.
A consistent trait among the slur players who are in the pocket is a strong right hand attack - the guys who pick more lightly tend to float around the time more, like the fusion players.
Because Metheny does the reverse-angle/trailing edge pick angle like Benson, this naturally pops the note out with authority right on the grid, more so than most guys who pick the 'normal' way. Also, Wes was mainly (always?) doing downstrokes, and they were reststrokes - very solid.
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This thread title reminds me that Charles Mingus wrote a tune "Gunslinging Bird" with the subtitle "“If Charlie Parker was a gunslinger, there’d be a whole lot of dead copycats.”
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sgcim:
"having great chops doesn't mean you play like charlie parker"
that's obviously right
but equally obviously that is not what has been claimed. there was much more detail than that to the original proposal - and yet more detail has been added since.
and is there really 'an obsession' with likening benson to parker - i've never heard the connection made before - certainly not with an example to tie it to.
and i've been listening in loving admiration to raney and farlow for over twenty years - they've never sounded one bit like charlie parker to me despite their 'vocabulary' - but on shadow benson immediately reminded me of him.
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Just as an aside to the thread and the recent discussion of George Benson's excellent rendition of The Shadow of Your Smile. Just before posting this, I was listening and playing along to Benson's version on Youtube. I recorded my version for YT not too long ago for my channel. My purpose this "morning" was to analyze Benson's lines and figure out how he effects those allegro articulations of his long lines with his picking technique. After playing through around three or four times along with his recording, I think I have figured out his stylistic and picking approach.
Although I am a great fan of George Benson, I have never really studied or transcribed note for note his music. I believe that his guitar playing on this recording would be eminently transcribable, especially if one had a software program like Transcribe or other 'slow-downer' software. But after playing through about four times, I noted that there are two phases to Benson's lines, similar in some ways to the way Joe Pass approached his phrasing.
Essentially, it is a kind of 'call and response' approach where Benson articulates the melody phrase and then plays a "fill" response type phrase. Articulating the melody, he plays it rather straight with a bit of ornamentation in spots, but in the fill response phase, he typically uses his strongly developed and very rapid alternate picking technique, while this line is often a descending in such a fashion that he can use a left hand pull off technique as well. As I noted, this reminds me also of Joe Pass' technical approach with his flurry of single note line fills.
Although I don't have the scratch to buy Transcribe at the moment, I think reducing the speed some 20 to 30% would make it quite easy to not only transcribe this solo but to understand in depth George's finely developed speed picking technique as well. I am sorely tempted to get Transcribe to get as accurate as possible, but I was wondering if Apple Logic 10 which is a more expensive priority on my 'wish list' has the 'slow down' function built in. Any Apple Logic users out there?
I hope my "insight" is not so trivial as to be in the category of "the sun rises in the East" in regards to his picking and soloing technique but I would be interested to hear if those proficient in his picking technique agree or simply your thoughts.
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