-
Help me with this . there is what I believe a myth that classical players can not play jazz,, all the cats I have jammed with that play classical have no problem. I my self have taken classical guitar .. any one here ever play with a proficient classical player who could not play jazz?
-
01-06-2015 08:05 PM
-
You talking classical musicians in general are just classical guitarists.
Classical musicians in general are so focused on technique and reading many don't get into Jazz. There are classical musicians that do get into jazz but I would call it the exception not the norm. Guitar player we are a cats that wonder into a little of everything. Back in my college days there were only a couple colleges that had Jazz studies so many guitar player became classical guitar performance majors so they could go to college and play guitar. My first Jazz teacher tried to talk me into it.
-
Interesting. The classical cats I know have no interest in jazz.
The music majors I knew in college did though...my school did not offer a jazz performance degree, only classical...so the percussion guys were all vibraphone nuts, etc...the guitar cats were pretty square though.
-
I'm not sure about the "myth" idea … Classical players who study jazz can learn to play jazz, as can country players, rockers, etc.
And yes, I've known plenty of classical players who did not study jazz, and therefore could not play it (and to clarify, they could read melodies from the Real Book easily, but then could not improvise in a jazz fashion). And I know rockers who can't play it, either.
-
I don't know about playing jazz, but I've seen classical students freeze up when asked to improvise.
-
Since the op wrote classical players, i'd like to mention the albums by grappelli with yehudi menuin . On the grappelli bio dvd, menuin tells how he couldn't improvise and his parts were written for him, but he certainly could play them.
-
I don't doubt that there are classical musicians who can improvise and play jazz, two different things by the way. Locally, the bass instructor at Wichita State is also a member of the symphony orchestra.
Nonetheless, there are reasons the "myth" has taken hold.
Famously, Dave Lambert had to be one of the first to use multi-tracking when he, Jon Hendricks, and Annie Lambert were getting started because the classically trained singers they hired couldn't swing.
There have many jazz musicians who have played very credible classical music: Benny Goodman, Wynton Marsalis, Branford Marsalis, Eddie Daniels, Jacques Loussier, Laurindo Almeida, and Keith Jarrett come to mind.
Sadly, the reverse is not so common. Violinist Itzhak Perlman is a jazz fan and recorded a very nice album A Different Kind of Blue with Andre Previn, Jim Hall, Shelly Manne, and Red Mitchell. But his solos were written out by Previn, who could be a persuasive jazz pianist.
Mark-Anthony Turnage, a very prominent contemporary composer from the UK has incorporated elements of jazz in his compositions and used jazz musicians such as John Scofield, wrote a lament in The Guardian about the failure of his fellow classical musicians to appreciate and understand jazz.
an eminent fellow composer ...in response to an audience member's question, declared that "jazz is all cliche". He honestly believed jazz musicians simply repeated a series of stock, prelearned phrases when they were improvising. It is an opinion that, to this day, makes my blood boil, one that completely misunderstands the spirit and the philosophy of jazz improvisation. Sadly, it is a view that permeates so much of the classical/contemporary music world....
What also impressed me was how open-minded so many jazz musicians are. Having worked with Scofield or Erskine or Lovano, or the bassists John Patitucci and Dave Holland, or the British pianist Gwilym Simcock, you notice how knowledgeable they are about other forms of music, even contemporary classical composition. If you're an improvising artist, I suppose it's natural that you're going to be absorbing new ideas in order to aid creativity. Jazz musicians will know about Xenakis, for instance. But it doesn't really work the other way around.
Pianist Paul Hoffman an advocate of the compatibility of jazz and classical music, has these interesting observations.
as the language of jazz has its origin in classical forms, harmonies and melodies, the jazz artist by definition has an intimate understanding (whether implicitly or explicitly; or even whether he or she is classically trained or not) of how classical music ‘works.’ Indeed, many contemporary jazz artists have extensive classical compositional experience.
By contrast (and this is not a criticism): Most highly-educated classical performers simply cannot play jazz very well, unless they’ve been able to spend years taking the time learning to ad-lib, while at the same time studying and absorbing jazz music in some depth.
-
I've known good conservatory level classical players who like jazz, but have no facility at all with improvisation, no less jazz on a form or in time. I've known many more jazz pianists who identify themselves as practicing and professional jazz musicians who have had classical training but would not perform it in any capacity out of respect for the art form.
Hey, each musician chooses which discipline they apply themselves to and those who invest the time become proficient. No rules or correlations that I can detect.
David
-
"Indeed, many contemporary jazz artists have extensive classical compositional experience." so that would make them also classical musicians.. I think just some musicians can not improvise and some can no matter what their background.
Last edited by EOE; 01-06-2015 at 11:22 PM.
-
On a related note - it is only in our time that classical musicians so often lack improvisational facility.
I was reading a book earlier today called Essays in Jazz, forgot the author or technically compiler since it is basically a compilation of jazz writings.
The preface talks a little about the history of improvisation in western music.
Starting(at least in what I read) from the practice of descant/discant, improvisation has had a long and celebrated history in western music. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and others of their ilk were all world class improvisers. Bachs son, himself a top quality musician said that what written material was present did little justice to his fathers improvisational skills and his commanding pressence when seen live.
Today the repertoire is of course written out for us with lots of details regarding ornamentation and embellishment - both vital aspects of improvisation. But back in the day, sheet music was more sparse and performers were expected to take liberty in their interpretation of the score - much more than today.
There were even "cutting" contests. Often during local competitions or other such situations, musicians would be judged on the basis of their improvisational skills - toss them a melody and let them loose.
Many lesser musicians would, once they were notified that their opponent was someone of exceptionally high calibre(forgot the names cited in the book), would shirk the contest and refuse to show up for fear of embarrassment.
Haydn, Liszt, Mendelssohn and many others were supposedly great improvisers as well.
I had to pack up and run for my bus but that's about where I reached and I found it really interesting - I had no idea. Unfortunately my library doesn't allow for borrowing.
-
I think playing classical for a long time, getting used to jazz rhythm and tempo would pose at challenge, also creative mistake making might be an issue too; since there's not room for error in classical music. I think after practicing for a while a classical player could pick it up easier than a other guitar players due to music theory and the technical proficiency classical requires.
Last edited by stellarstar; 01-07-2015 at 02:23 PM.
-
i don't think that either side breaks over to the other with terrific results most of the time, passable maybe but not as good as the best players in the genre. For example, A. Previn and K. Jarrett. Each is MUCH better in his own element IMO.
anyway, show me some outstanding contemporary classical guys (I mean specialists in classical) who play improvised jazz solos in a really convincing and impressive manner.
-
Jazz players are making mistakes all the time when you're living on the edge hard not to, but the great musicians turn mistakes into new ideas. As Miles Davis said.... There are no mistakes, only opportunities. Another quote.... The next note determines if a note was a mistake.
Originally Posted by stellarstar
Classical players are tied to reading the ink so creating on the spot is uncomfortable for most of them.
-
I think I might be somewhat in between. After playing a tune a couple of dozen times I've narrowed down what I want to hear at each point and after that I don't want to play anything differently. The only way that I would deviate is if the rhythm changed or some other accompanying element that would make my previous ideas not work so well anymore, or if I haven't played the tune in a while so I'm coming at it fresh.
-
i'll chime in here..
i'm a full time double bassist. all the really great bass players ive met, studied with, or come across otherwise, have been awesome at both classical and jazz playing.
but those are the "really great" players among a bunch of full time pros. in genneral, if someone is a "classical musician," unfourtunately they tend to be terrible improvisers. which is a shame, since improvisation / cadenza playing was a big part of the performance practice for Beethoven, Mozart, ext.. most strong symphony players i know stink at it, but listen to edgar meyer improvise- yikes.
guitarists can be a mixed bunch. we all know that most of them come from an electric background. the few i know that are seriously "a classical guitarist," play recitals, know the repertoire, the whole 9 yards, are crappy jazzers. not like horrible, but could definitely not hold their own on a quartet gig.
but, i know a lot of mediocre classical players that can play jazz well, and i suppose are really a "jazz player that can paly classical well too.."
in the end you're only able to dedicate yourself to so much, and this all depends on what you consider to be a good classical and/or jazz player, right?- aside from the prodigies/exceptions, this seems to be the rule.
isint there a video floating around of julian bream playing some jazz and sounding pretty good? i know when he was young he played a lot of that stuff to make a buck, and that he grew up in love with Django.
-
-
Improvisation, not standard jazz
Last edited by srlank; 01-07-2015 at 11:54 AM.
-
That was a mistake. I typed it so fast I overlooked it. What I s trying to say is obvious if you put 2 and 2 together Originally Posted by docbop
-
I am a classical musician, from a family of classical musicians.
I love to play jazz guitar or to improvise jazz. (I love it, didn't say I was good)
It is just a matter of "wanting" to put the efforts in it.
Of course if you ask a classical musician who never put any effort in learning to improvise you will get sad results.
But if you ask a classical musician who practiced improvisation he will sound as good as the time he put into it.
There is no magic. Put your time in improvisation you will be good at it.
BUT please, if you mention that jazz musicians are better at crossing the border I can't agree. The best examples I saw where from Keith Jarett and I saw him playing Bach and Mozart. He got the notes right but classical music IS NOT ABOUT PLAYING THE RIGHT NOTES. its about HOW you play them and the TIME you spent thinking about which phrasing you will use for maximum effect. Where will you use vibrato, accents, nuances, articulations and WHY, not because you feel like it on the moment. There is tons of stuff you need to do that is NOT written in the part. You can't bullshit that.
Also classical music doest not end with Bach.
edit: For what I heard, when Marsalis was doing his classical stuff he would alternate a year of classic and then a year of jazz. Thats quite amazing dedication and he got great results but bring the question; how much of your practice should be "jazz" to be jazz guy coin classical or the opposite?Last edited by Takemitsu; 01-07-2015 at 02:40 PM.
-
When I was in Graduate School, I took part in a concert featuring the students of my CG teacher, and since I was a jazzer, I wrote a five guitar arrangement of Stolen Moments for the CG players.
At the first and only rehearsal, they played their parts perfectly, but when the improvisation part came, they sounded pretty lame.
At the concert, I didn't even practice, because i figured I could blow these guys away like I did at the rehearsal.
To my amazement, these guys worked their asses off and wound up blowing me away!
I remember even screwing up the part when we all started trading fours.
Never underestimate a CG player!
-
A few years back, I bought this documentary on the life of a very famous British classical guitarist. I mentioned this to someone whose opinion I respect more than anyone else's in music. He said that this very famous British classical guitarist once asked him to play a jazz duet on guitar. The appraisal? He was apparently awful, brutal with the instrument and rooted in the 1930s level vocabulary. Conclusion: he absolutely cannot play jazz.
in the actual documentary, there is a story wherein said very famous British classical guitarist was asked to sub in for a big band. afterwords, the bandleader thanked him and said if he came back tomorrow, he would give him a rhythm guitar lesson.
okay, I see from above that part of this documentary has been referenced in this thread.. but not the part where the big band leader asked him to come back tomorrow for a rhythm guitar lesson.
-
Dominic miller is influenced by classical guitar, his style is a blend of different influences classical being one....I love his music, been binging on his recordings for a few months.....In many interviews on Utube he discusses his love of classical music.....and how it has influenced his music....
-
I recently saw Sharon Isbin play a duet concert with Romero Lubambo. She played written parts and Romero improvised over those. Clearly Sharon, who is one of the worlds finest classical guitarist, is not able to improvise. Or at least not improvise comfortably enough to try to do so in a concert setting.
I would recommend listening to Anthony Wilson's four seasons concerto that he wrote for John Monteleone's quartet of guitars. Steve Cardenas, Julian Lage and Chico Pinhero (sp?) are the other four guitarists. Much of the composition is written like a classical quartet with space for improvisation. These four musicians are equally able to negotiate all of those aspects of playing superbly.
-
I remember in music school many of the horn players would have two teachers, a classical teacher to work on technique and tone production and second a improv teacher. Miles and others studied classical at one point for technique. So the study of, interest in improv is the difference.
-
I agree that it's really about time spent. Period. There's also not a ton of overlap in style, vocabulary etc. You have to commit serious hours to a style which isn't you're primary focus to really get some results.
Maybe if Bach or Mozart included more bebop lines in their compositions it'd be easier to cross over from classical? :-)
Reply With Quote
How is the Steve Howe 175?
Today, 05:54 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos