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It's all good. Just read lots of varied stuff. If you read Bird, you get good at sightreading Bird, but might not have a clue in other stuff.
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08-23-2018 03:44 PM
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Thanks that’s a great idea.
Originally Posted by pcsanwald
Btw it’s easy enough to put something in a slow downer and try reading it at a slower speed if it’s too fast.
Anyway I might try the PM real book for reading.
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So I am currently learning the Ornithology solo, and I want to do this the correct way. What is the recommended way of working through the material in omnibook? What I have done is try to learn the solo relevant to scale/arpeggio shape/patterns I have on the fretboard. I have also tried to analyse the notes in relation to chord tones. Unfortunately, here I think my lack of knowledge makes me fall short. I tend to just automatically relate the chord tones to the chord notated above. I don't have the knowledge(yet), to see substitutions.
For example this:
I have already been told that the first bar is him playing D7 over the G. I just saw that as playing the Gmaj7 arpeggio with extensions.
To be honest, I think the main goal for me to work with this stuff, is to get it in to my ear. Even though I don't understand what is the the correct arpeggio/scale he played, I still get the vocabulary?
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Of course I would say the easiest way to learn bop is to put the book aside and do it by ear.
No really I found it a lot easier.
But here’s an idea - instead of looking at the chord tones in relation to the underlying progression take a look at what the notes are on their own.
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So you learn, that D and Bm goes on G, Am on F.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
But D7 is not the _only_ thing those notes in the first bar could be? Well, it's perhaps most logically D7, at least the D F# A C part, but still, how do you always draw the correct conclusion what "arpeggio" he intended to play?
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I'd suggest creating a backing track that's slow enough so that you can play the lines and get them in your ear.
That said, I'll give my take.
Bars 1 and 2 look like Gmaj9 with some passing tones. G B D F# A. Of course, you will see a D6 and a Bm7 in those notes.
So, the first three notes a Dmaj.
Now you could argue that he's thinking Gmaj13 or, that adds an E, which means that Em is also embedded, and on beat 3 he starts and Em arp. Of course, that gives you all the notes of Gmaj scale, in which case you see him employing various triads within it.
There are two notes in Bar 1 that don't fit this theory. He plays a C, which makes the first 5 notes look like D13, or, if you include the 11th, the first 7 notes are D13. But, OTOH, the C is on a weak beat and I'm willing to call it a chromatic embellishment that bridges the Dmaj arp in the first three notes and the Em arp in beat 3.
My guess is that Bird knew which triads are embedded in the major scale and could freely mix and match by ear.
In bar 2 the analysis is similar. D13? Or, overlaying a Bm7 with some passing notes.
Bars 3 and 4 look like he ignores the Gm and thinks C7, which is a common device.
In Bar 5, he's switched to Fmaj scale. Bar 6 gets more interesting.
You could call the first 4 notes a descending Gbmaj7 leading into an ascending Fmaj7 on beat 3.
That's side slipping. I think it may be a better way to think of it than, say, noticing that there's a descending Bbm9 for four notes.
Against Fm he plays Fm9.
So, it seems to me just this much suggests that Bird knows his scales, the embedded chords and how to bridge from one to another with a chromatic passing tone or a full side-slipped arp.
This analysis requires only that you know the names of the notes in basic "jazz" chords and major scales.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yes, I do that. First learn them with a metronome, then try playing it with iRealPro. Then play them with the recording at half speed. Which is still pretty fast..
However, I know my diatonic major arpeggios, so it's not that. I think the problem is more seeing what he plays. The analysis in your post is totally different than what I saw the first time I analysed it.
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I don’t hear the c there as harmonically important, because it’s a passing tone between the D and the B and also on the upbeat. So I hear that first phrase as a D triad on the G chord, then that descending Eminor linking neatly with a chromatic passing tone (b6) into the 5th of the next bar Originally Posted by znerken
But there’s no real way to know.
The important thing is not harmonic analysis in my opinion but to know how to construct idiomatic jazz lines based on - as in this case - a simple G diatonic scale (excepting that passing Eb). The arpeggios and triads you can find in the scale are part of that raw material.
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So just by learning the solo, and getting it in the ear, even though you are not totally aware of the analysis, you get a long way? Cause that’s my intention of all this. That’s why I listen a lot to jazz also. My vocabulary and ear needs it. I mean for every beginner, the altered scale for example sounds totally like you’re playing out of tune m. Haha. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Well what is there to analyse in those two bars? It’s G major. Originally Posted by znerken
There’s some simple triad arpeggios that are diatonic to that scale (D, Em, Bm) and a typical passing tone into the next chord. This is the type of thing that I mean when I say Bird is very diatonic.
You will sound out of tune playing the altered scale because you don’t yet hear the diatonic options and how that scale extends it.
The melody of that line - how it uses stepwise and triadic motion is as valuable - perhaps more so - than the harmonic relationship to the chord. Also the rhythm - notice the use of the triplet.
The way he places the C and Eb - dissonant tones - on the upbeat between two neighbouring scale steps.
After all G major on G will sound good provided you don’t hit the C in the wrong way. It’s not rocket science :-) but to come with a strong melodic line, takes practice.
That’s why I say it’s easier and quicker to learn bop by ear.
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Could you elaborate what you mean by this: Originally Posted by christianm77
You will sound out of tune playing the altered scale because you don’t yet hear the diatonic options and how that scale extends it.
Thanks!
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That’s a good question. For me it has to with learning to play the dominant into tonic - hearing the resolution and how you set it up.
It’s not hard, it just requires a re gearing of the way you hear. Rather than thinking G7 say in isolation, you think G7–>C. So the notes in the altered scale and other dominant sounds relate to chord tones in C, chromatic movements that create satisfying resolutions into target chord tones.
The altered scale is good for this.
There’s loads of this stuff in Parker of course - although I can’t find too many examples of the altered scale itself - it’s a good place to look.
Also the altered scale is a sound in its own right of course, but that’s not how I hear it in this traditional type of changes playing.
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Ye. To create a stronger pull and more satisfying feeling when you land on the C right? That’s what I always try to imagine. Originally Posted by christianm77
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For instance look at that last bar, the voice leading has Am7, then flattens the E and A to get Abmaj7, resolves to f# half a step down from that repeated G on the anticipation of the next bar - it all creates a sense of resolution that is both inevitable and colourful.
The altered scale has no 11 btw, that
Abmaj7 comes from somewhere else. But it doesn’t matter that much - it’s function is to create motion.
So if you look at the line cliches in the voice leading of the arpeggios Birds playing - in this case
G —> G —> F#
E —> Eb —> (D)
A —> Ab —> (G)
So we don’t hear the resolution to D and G directly - at least not on this page, but those notes are strongly attractive in the G chord. Even if we didn’t hear them we would tend to fill them in
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Is it wrong to think that the 11 is from a normal Dominant? I mean most tend to just borrow notes from the altered scale, or? For example playing both a natural 9 and a #9. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I think Christian's advice to do some or all of this by ear is excellent advice.
The fact is that knowing all the theory that Bird knew and even thinking through a specific tune his way (if that were known) won't guarantee that you will sound good.
The issue is making great melody. You're probably more likely to get there working a lot by ear and practicing scat singing until you can sing great lines.
There are two things you absolutely have to do to play good jazz, and theory isn't one of them.
1. Hear great lines in your mind.
2. Play them.
Theory can help, but it isn't essential. Not every great player knows theory, whereas every great player can do these two things.
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Nothing is wrong theoretically, but the way I tend to see it, if you are borrowing notes from the altered scale, you are really borrowing notes from the chromatic scale around the target chord. Originally Posted by znerken
What do I mean by this?
G major scale - G A B (C) D E F#
Every other note - Ab Bb Db Eb F
I put the C in brackets cos you can't resolve to that on a G chord. Try it.
Altered scale - (D) Eb F (F#) Ab Bb (C)
The only note missing is Db, which is considered a 'bad' note against D7 by some theorists, but you can actually find examples of in bebop - plus I like to use it.
So all of those chromatic notes have a relationship to the I chord... Even just the basic notes
Ab ---> G
Bb ---> B
Db, Eb ---> D
F --> F# or E (7th or 6th)
So we can hear those gravitational pulls towards the target tones on Gmajor. That's what that last bar is beautiful demonstration of, as with so much of Bird's music. But it's older than Bird. Lester Young, Louis, you hear it all over. Bird disguised it a bit more by making his phrases more irregular and unpredictable, all though that last phrase is pretty regular....
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Oh yeah, one last thing :-)
In general any note appearing on the anticipation (the 4+) of the bar that's tied into the next bar, should actually be seen harmonically as belonging to the next bar.
So that D you identify as a bebop chromatic should actually be understood as a chord tone of Am7b5 (well D7), in the next bar. Similarly that F# in the last bar should be seen as belonging to the next bar (which IIRC correctly is G)Last edited by christianm77; 12-26-2018 at 08:22 PM.
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Sure that last bar can be conceptualized as altered, but, more likely he was thinking Am7, Ab major triad. That is, a garden variety (now) tritone sub for D7.
And, Christian's point about the last note of a bar really belonging to the next bar is a good point. I'd add that you will occasionally see a chord held past the bar line too. Or, anticipated by more than an eighth note. Switching to the next chord early kind of forces the listener's ears to perk up, and then, by the time the listener notices something is amiss, the resolution occurs.
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It’s Abmaj7 tho.
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I've never looked at the omnibook, but I agree that it's best to learn to sing/play this stuff aurally. If you can't figure something out by ear, you've got the book as a reference
In general I'd recommend listening to as much Charlie Parker as you can before trying to learn this stuff. A lot of this stuff sounds better on guitar if you play it an octave down. When I was learning a lot of bird solos, I learned them at original pitch, and I feel I lost a little something by being so pedantic about it. Learning the solos an octave down lets you re-use some of the material a bit more.
I also wouldn't try to be too slavish about copying everything exactly; oftentimes things that sound great on alto can sound somewhat weak on guitar.
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You know, I think you’re right about that one octave down part. But, you can learn it in the original pitch. Then you can just move it to the note on the string above. Just use the same fingering. Sure you gotta adjust a little, but this way it’s easy to reuse it in other patterns. Originally Posted by pcsanwald
I've never looked at the omnibook, but I agree that it's best to learn to sing/play this stuff aurally. If you can't figure something out by ear, you've got the book as a reference
In general I'd recommend listening to as much Charlie Parker as you can before trying to learn this stuff. A lot of this stuff sounds better on guitar if you play it an octave down. When I was learning a lot of bird solos, I learned them at original pitch, and I feel I lost a little something by being so pedantic about it. Learning the solos an octave down lets you re-use some of the material a bit more.
I also wouldn't try to be too slavish about copying everything exactly; oftentimes things that sound great on alto can sound somewhat weak on guitar.
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The C omnibook sounds one octave lower when played on the guitar anyway, because it’s written in concert pitch, not guitar notation.
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There's an Am7 (because he starts the bar with a G), a G note, and an Abmaj triad. I didn't mention the last note, F#, but that makes the second portion of the bar Ab7, which is an exact tritone sub. But, it may also be an anticipation of the next bar. Originally Posted by christianm77
So, I called it Am7, then Abmaj triad. That's because I was thinking iim7 then tritone sub. I can see arguments for Am7 to Abmaj7 or Am7 to Ab7 or Am7 to D7b9#11.
You could certainly see the G as the nat7 of an Amaj7. And, you could still see it also as part of Am7, ie with the G note being part of both chords. It would probably sound good to hold the G while the chords change beneath it.
So, to me, no right way or wrong way to think about it. Fact is, I learned it one way decades ago and never thought to adjust.
It has me on the look out for other situations in which two arps are connected by a note in this way.
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