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I actually agree with that. Coltrane was what got me into jazz, and it was an album of his ballads. Amazing, haunting music.
Originally Posted by targuit
I didn't get Giant Steps and Coltrane's Sound till much later. Didn't really care for the uptempo tunes that much. At the moment I'd rather listen to Dexter Gordon, say, but I do respect it. I think Trane was really reaching for something, but people take scales and modes away from it. I mean, what do scales and modes have to do with a piece like Alabama? It's like saying Beethoven's 9th is tonal harmony. Tells you nothing.
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05-17-2015 03:01 PM
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I have used the Omnibook for around 30 years, for sight reading, and learning lines. It is probably the most valuable resource for learning to play jazz in general (not just bebop).
The C book is the one to use -- these are the keys that everyone plays these tunes in. of course it's useful to know them in other keys, but learn them first in these keys.
The missing key signatures: this is a common way to notate jazz tunes, since they generally move through a lot of keys. I generally find it easier to relate phrases to the harmonies if all the accidentals are written in. Also, a good sight reader will have no problem without a key signature. Get used to it.
I most often first learn the heads in the guitar octave, that is, an octave below the alto range, then, at some point try them up the octave, and see which one I like best, or use the one that sounds best with the instrumentation I'm working with.
Cheer
Pete
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I understand more notes within the stave although I can't read, so don't really care, but anyway ... Originally Posted by 55bar
Were you actually playing things 3 semitones lower, or you were mechanically transposing?
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Man targuit... how can you dish truly great jazz musicians. I've heard your playing... your nowhere near the level of playing or understanding of playing to make those comments. I'm embarrassed just reading those comments.
I don't have the omnibook... but students bring in copies for me to sight read through and help them phrase etc... I'm a working advanced sight reading musician, at tempo, their very difficult sight reading. Hell just to be able to play at some of the tempos is difficult.
I don't care if theirs a key signature or not... it doesn't really matter, if you sight read... you sight read. Knowing what key the music is implying is a skill that comes with developing musicianship. There is the key of the tune and then there is the key of the moment or tonal targets. Eventually that becomes obvious.
Part of sight reading is being able to transpose up or down an octave... as needed to perform on your instrument. After that comes the ability to transpose lines into different keys... up or down. This skill has been fading over the last 20 years, but is still very useful when performing.
Hey Vladan... I mechanically transpose, chromatic transposition...Different from diatonic transposition, like playing harmony parts to a melody up a diatonic 3rd. Which is very common with added corrections for harmonic implications... use of blue notes or changing the transposed pattern to create better arrangements. Sometimes called head arrangements, quick on the spot verbal arrangements before the tune is played.
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Wow! Reg - I believe that all I said was that transposing allegro tempos of the music of John Coltrane or Charlie Parker is made far easier by 'slowing the tempo down by 20-30% with Transcribe software or other slow downer...." And to make the offense worst, I should say up front that I love Coltrane's ballad playing and not so much A Love Supreme.
While I realize it a form of sacrilege to admit these personal failings in public, referring to them as Gods with feet of clay - Charlie was after all a heroin addict, was he not? - I don't know if it qualifies for a rebuke from you as to my playing skills. One day I hope to be amongst the anointed. You are of course entitled to your opinion. Still waiting for you to play a solo ballad one of these days. That would be at a tempo under 160 bpm.
But, just teasing you, Reg... Good to hear you don't mind reading the Omnibook without a key signature. Annoys the crap out me.
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I see how doing the transcribing yourself is best ...
but using someone else's transcriptions are great ways to get started IMHO ... and the Parker Omnibook is one of the best I've encountered
Especially for those of us who don't have the free time we did back in high school or college to sit for hours transcribing a single piece
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I don't see why Parker's drug problems are relevant to his musical worth. As for Coltrane, once he'd overcome his addiction, he virtually behaved like a saint compared to most musicians. Originally Posted by targuit
The imputation seems to be that 'worship' of these figures is misplaced because of their feet of clay. However it could be that people 'worship' them for their music alone.
I'm sure you could dig up some unsavoury facts about any musical figure who anyone likes, e.g. Sinatra? Even Bruno Martino, for all I know?
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Can only speak for myself obviously, but I think most guitarists using the Eb version are not transposing it. It's just easier to play the solos in that version on the guitar, because they fit better in the guitar's range, 'as written'. Hopefully you can then take the vocabulary etc. you've learned/absorbed and apply it to any key. As the guitar transposes so readily, I find this less difficult than might be expected. Originally Posted by Vladan
Of course the Eb version is not so useful if you want to play the heads in the original key. For that I find it better to use the C version and make some adjustments for the guitar, i.e. some things might have to go up an octave.
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Hey y’all,
I’m going to be working on my reading, and will be using the Omnibook (among other materials). I am wondering if others utilize the Omnibook, and for what purpose/s. I’m using it this time for reading, but I’ve used in the past for a variety of things. Curious to hear some of your experiences.
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That seems like pretty hard reading. If you’re up to it congrats! Originally Posted by srlank
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thx for your reply Sully. The toughest part is the rhythms, and at this point I am having to stop to break some of them down. But they start to repeat themselves or are often similar. And in general, I am putting the metronome on a very slow setting. I’m thinking of opening an additional thread on sight-reading. A friend had suggested the Omnibook as a reading tool. And as I started reading through it, I started to wonder how other people use this book.
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Assuming that we are talking about the Parker (not Trane, Joe Pass, etc.) Omnibook, and assuming that we are only talking about playing heads, a lot of players use it for jazz (bebop) phrasing and time.
If it's a bit too much for one's current level, something like the Snidero series can be very helpful. It includes backing tracks with and without guitar, so you can double with the pro guitarist (Joe Cohn) when trying to get the feel, then solo when ready.
If we are talking about playing the Parker solos, well then it's like learning any other transcribed jazz master's solos.
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I've used it for reading. Also while reading, whenever I found a particular phrase I thought was really cool and might have a lot of applications, I circled it in pencil so I could find it again later and play around with it. I found this approach more useful than trying to 'ingest' an entire solo, that's usually 'too much information' for me.
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Some suggestions from leading UK guitarist and teacher, Mike Outram: How to Practise with the Charlie Parker Omnibook - ElectricCampfire.com - Creative Jazz Guitar Lessons
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Mike is a divergent thinker. I sometimes think jazz guitarists (such as me) could work a little bit harder at coming up with interesting approaches to things. I mean it’s kind of the job description?
Take 10 minutes at the start of a session to brainstorm ideas for practice. Use articles such as that to get the ball rolling.
Practice activity number 1 - write the omnibook, and compare your work to Aebersolds ;-)
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I think they got something wrong in the 'intro' to KoKo for a start. Really sounds like there's a beat missing or notes start on the wrong beat or something. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Omnibook looks like torture.....why not get this .all Omnibook is in it....Tablature and of course ability to slow Charlie down... i did and much easier Charlie Parker for Band in a Box - DjangoBooks.com
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What You Will Learn From Band In A Box - ElectricCampfire.com - Creative Jazz Guitar Lessons Originally Posted by voxss
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hahaha... really cant see many people picking Omnibook up..insane ..all the notes...i did try.........lifes too short...i ran charlie in a box..tonight tempo max 140 ..i like to kill the piano and and add the Organ B3 ..kill the bass too...sounded delightful playing these legenday solos..never will play with a real band ....if only we had virtual avatars playing the rhythm parts..like in second life...yea i know ..get a life....lol
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This is all possibly true as well about reading from the Omnibook with a metronome, but using it will hopefully help my ability to sight-read. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Personally - The omnibook is a good sight reading text and a useful reference for tunes. Beyond that I don’t use it.
I generally prefer to learn lines by ear, I think it goes on deeper. I like Graham’s idea though. I do something similar with ear learning. Whole solos are a bit too much info for developing an improv vocal.
I’ve never used Band in a Box, but I don’t use backing tracks much.
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I've never looked through an Omnibook, but I've done a ton of work on my sightreading the past couple years and improved a lot. If your goal is just to generally improve your reading, I think almost any music book is good, but I do think you will benefit a lot from targeting your practice towards the stuff you want/need to be able to read, and Charlie Parker solos might not be the most productive material. Originally Posted by srlank
Big band: Half the battle is structure of the piece: interpreting repeats correctly, DS/DC and other sorts of "map reading" activities. The other side is key changes, time signature changes, and subdividing the time correctly (if the chart is in cut time, etc). Rhythmic hits are really important here, in big band this comes down to pattern recognition. Reading bebop lines, for guitar, rarely comes up.
Small group jazz: Reading lead sheets and adjusting melodies for range of the instrument. This sounds odd to say, but when reading melodies that are mostly quarter notes and above but the tempo is fast can actually be fairly difficult in the sense that your eye needs to move very quickly across the page and keep ahead of the music. Again, this is an area where bebop solos won't really help. I got pretty good at reading high note density classical music (kreutzer, bach, etc), and would still have problems reading "easier" stuff at a fast tempo until I really worked on that specifically.
My advice basically boils down to, be as specific as you can with reading practice. I think the best "bang for buck" for sightreading material for guitarists is the Pat Metheny fake book he published. It addresses every reading challenge I mentioned above, and additionally, you can play along with the recordings, which is great because sightreading in the context of other musicians playing around you is also important. it's one thing to read something well in the practice room, but it can be more difficult on the bandstand with counterlines happening, etc.
hope this is helpful! not meant to discourage you from reading charlie parker in any way, but I do think it's important to be realistic about what you can expect to get out of it.
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Hey Pcsanwald!
Thank you! I am actually trying to prepare for playing with a big band. This situation is unique however, as the director has the guitar players often double horn parts. He is the person who actually suggested the Omnibook.
But the Omnibook would likely not prepare me for all of the regular guitar/piano charts, and so I’ve ordered the PM book. Did you mean the ‘Pat Metheney Real Book?’
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I actually meant the "Pat Metheny Songbook" which is a bit older. But I'm sure both of them are good for reading practice! the thing with Pat's tunes is that, particularly with PMG, there are lots of sections, changes in key/tempo/time signature, and various sorts of musical notation for getting around the chart (the various DC/DS signs and ending), and if you play along with the records, it'll be pretty clear where you've missed something. Originally Posted by srlank
Most horn parts, even in big band writing, will be considerably less complex than Bird's solos. My larger point in my earlier post is that reading stuff that is "more complex" is sometimes not going to help with "easier" material if the challenges are different.
Hope this helps and that you enjoy your book!
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Hey pcsanwald. I definitely get what you are saying. I had pulled out The Realbook Volume II after I last posted, and tried playing along with the recording for the first tune in the book, Afro-centric.....much tougher than the Omnibook! Just reading slowly, no problem, but trying to play what appears to be simple with the band at tempo is much tougher!
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