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I don't think it's jazz if there is no improvisational component to it.
What do you say makes something "jazz" if it's not improvisation and swing?
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10-29-2014 01:37 PM
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So, you like jazz, but only the first and last 30 seconds of every song?
Originally Posted by Broyale
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There's nothing wrong in being an accompanist who never takes solos - check out Freddie Green. But you should still be trying to vary the comping a bit each time.
Maybe 2 choruses the same way would be just about ok, but if you did exactly the same on the third one, it wouldn't sound much good.
Bear in mind you could just improvise by varying the rhythms you use in the comping, even if you use the same chord grips. Have you tried this? Everyone finds jazz hard at first, but progresses slowly along the road by small steps like this.
You sound like you have a negative attitude to the whole thing, if so I think this will just get in your way.
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I think you already answered your own question when you said: Originally Posted by Broyale
"the process of spontaneously creating fresh melodies over the continuously repeating cycle of chord changes of a tune."
Which is as good a definition as any.
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When I think of jazz, I think of the music, songs I like, strong melodies, harmony, and the rhythm of the music (the swing). At work, if I hear a melody I like (usually the head) or if the tune has a nice tone I feel, I'll hit up iTunes for it. But I don't enjoy solos all that much, when I listen I just skip past all that or just wait it out until the main melody comes back around. I think improvisation is a part of jazz, but not to the extent where you either do it or "you're not playing jazz". I view jazz more as the music and feel and less the approach, but like I said, I didn't grow up immersed in jazz or attend a music conservatory or whatever. At jazz camp, I did not want to take a solo, not because I was nervous (I was), but because the improvisational aspect of jazz (as it relates to soloing) isn't something I relate to. But I did anyways since our combo leader insisted I at least take a chorus. Whenever I watch that video, I mostly think of how I could improve my comping. Honestly, I can't even think of any solos I like. I don't mind if someone wants to jam with me on some blues. I don't like the blues, but I do it mainly as a warmup, and that's only if someone (an instructor, friend) calls it. Even then, I am at home comping chords while they do what they do. Originally Posted by ColinO
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I always viewed soloing as giving the singer a break. Nothing more. Originally Posted by Broyale
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I tried that at camp during the final concert and I thought it sounded terrible. Watching myself again, I thought I should've just kept it simple. I had to comp for the pianist and the moment I got in the zone and started going nuts with the chords, it sounded like ass. Felt good playing it, not very good listening to it at home. I'll try to reupload the video so you can judge for yourself. Originally Posted by grahambop
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So I do think we look at jazz differently...to me, it's all in the approach.
Earlier, I said that jazz improvisation is not just about the "solo." And I think that's what truly makes jazz wonderful, and unique. It's the heart and soul of the music...and yeah, I know folks will find youtube examples that are contrary...I don't care, those are exceptions, not the norm.
Broyale, I challenge you to really listen to a jazz tune. Take something you already like maybe, but something where there are solos you gotta get through...If you want an example, try Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage," as I think it's a great example of this...
Herbie sets the mood, with a pretty straight up set piano part...the head is played, and then the solos. I want you to listen to the solos, but not at first...first time through the tune, just listen to what Herbie does under the soloist. The space, the rhythm...then listen again and listen to Tony Williams on drums...then again and listen to Ron Carter on bass. They're imporovising...the WHOLE time. They're reacting to the soloist...they even spur on the soloist. Lsten to some of the rhythmic things Tony picks up on and mimicks.
Then go back and listen to the solos...listen to the interaction. That's the beauty of jazz, that's what makes jazz truly unique...it's not just extended harmony, or tapping your foot to a swing on 2 and 4...
A jazz tune, played by a competent group, is a living breathing thing that can flow in different directions if the players are tuned in. It's not a set piece that needs to be performd the same way, and the solos are interactive, not just showcases for a hotshot player (think of the local blues jam where the guy goes off for five minutes and the band plays the SAME TIRED ASS BOOGIE under it for all five minutes.) This is the spontaneity, the real beauty of jazz...this is what so many of us have fallen in love with. Try listening in this manner. It's everything, I promise.
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Well comping for a pianist is hard anyway. I would say 'less is more', i.e. use sparse voicings, such as 3-note chords omitting the root. Play the chords fairly clipped i.e. not ringing on too long.
Let's see that video again - it might help.
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Yes, but don't worry, there are many amateurs playing badly improvised music. Originally Posted by Broyale
Maybe this is one of the problems.
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Agree.......... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Comping is definitely improvisation. A competent comper should be carefully listening to the soloist and making them sound good. If you ask Jimmy Bruno how to practice comping, he'll definitely tell you that you can't without a band and a real soloist. This has been my experience too. You can practice your chords and inversions but using them in a band setting is a different skill altogether. I personally love comping.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
There's all sorts of trouble trying to go in with too set of a plan...the first step is to listen. What's the piano player DOING? Yeah, you can start out the first few bars saying..."alright, I'm just gonna do a charleston, or I'm gonna let the chord sustain, or I'm gonna do a short jab," or whatever, but what should REALLY happen then is you LISTEN. Is the piano player the cat who can't turn off accompanying himself? LAY OUT! Is he playing right hand only? MAKE A DECISION--allow the space or start to fill it in tastefully...Is he swinging hard? Maybe four to the floor, 3rd and 7ths...He's leading now, your job is to make him sound better...you can't go into it with a plan like "I'm gonna pull out those hip voicings I learned this morning." That's not how it works.
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Originally Posted by ecj
Yes.
To elaborate, I have never heard a solo that had the same impact on me as the main melody. For example, two of my favorite tunes are Stolen Moments and Love for Sale, those melodies just feel so good to my ears, that's the shit that makes me love jazz music. I walk around singing 'em at work.
Thanks, man. I never really associated improvisation with comping before. I always viewed improv as this singular thing, when from above, everyone can be improvising at the same time while supporting each other. I like that. Even at jazz camp, no one really spoke on it that way. I have no problem with rhythmic variation-its one of the things I am working on. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Man, that bums me out. Actually, it infuriates me. You paid good money to learn something about jazz, and they leave that out? That's inexcusable. Originally Posted by Broyale
Even at jazz camp, no one really spoke on it that way.
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Learn how to sing. Strangely, a good book on singing is more effective than any other music-related book I've come across. Singing for Dummies is the best investment I've ever made in my life. Not as good as getting a teacher but still effective. Originally Posted by Broyale
Yes.
To elaborate, I have never heard a solo that had the same impact on me as the main melody. For example, two of my favorite tunes are Stolen Moments and Love for Sale, those melodies just feel so good to my ears, that's the shit that makes me love jazz music. I walk around singing 'em at work.
Thanks, man. I never really associated improvisation with comping before. I always viewed improv as this singular thing, when from above, everyone can be improvising at the same time while supporting each other. I like that. Even at jazz camp, no one really spoke on it that way. I have no problem with rhythmic variation-its one of the things I am working on.
Singing and soloing are chores to me. I figured might as well try to educate myself about singing.
It's a fun read too!!
I skimmed the book at first. Then skimmed it again in more detail. Then I started going through the exercises. I was choosing a book to go with among 7-8.Last edited by Stevebol; 10-29-2014 at 03:33 PM.
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If you like the melody so much, check out Lee Konitz' 10-step improv. method. It works through ways to improvise by using the original melody, and applying gradual changes to it. Originally Posted by Broyale
Lee Konitz : 10-Step Method for Improvisation
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Join a big band and embrace the role you seem to cherish. Charts with a hundred chords per tune to turn you into a mean, lean, comping machine. I kid you not.
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Broyale - there is no ONE way to do anything. But I can't help but feeling you are missing some basic and fundamental concepts with your understanding of jazz. You're at the beginning, or the end, of your jazz studies. If you don't like solos then your life span as a jazz guitarist will probably be very short lived. I urge you to expand your horizons and listen to Wes' improvisations, or other instrumentalists like Cannonball Adderly, Oscar Peterson's flights of fancy, Miles, Clifford Brown.
Learn to sing a few solos to the point where you know them as well as the melody. If you play the song, including the previously avoided middle sections, you will begin to hear the solo as just a longer portion of the song -- if it's a great solo. Right now, in my mind's ear, I'm listening to Oscar's solo from On Green Dolphin Street. That is so ingrained inside me it's as living as the melody. It's not just a random bunch of notes played by a tasteless player who only wants to show off. But rather by a gifted artist who creates amazing melodies at the drop of a hat. It's what the human mind can do. In fact it's a moment to moment impression of the human experience unfolding over time. When you listen to a solo closely for the first time, you are creating that one time experience too. It's the human spark of invention happening right before your eyes. Amazing. That's what jazz is. You have yet to discover this.
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You're painting yourself into a corner on this. There's nothing I'd rather do than just play chords behind a singer but I've only had one gig like that. It was a girl group and they were excellent. Originally Posted by Broyale
Sure, you're not that young anymore and you might feel out of place at these institutions but you should be testing yourself musically. Try everything. I never though I'd try singing again, I never though I would get into beatboxing. It happened though. And I'm WAY older than you!
I love playing rhythm but if you do that exclusively you make yourself entirely dependent on others.
Expand your horizons and try to have fun with music.
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No, you would not be playing jazz. Originally Posted by Broyale
Broyale - reality check time - you are frustrated in your attempts to learn jazz, and you are looking for an "out" that will let you attain your newly revised goals (which do not include improvisation). Sure, go ahead and do that if it makes you feel better, but don't be surprised if people laugh when you tell them you are a "jazz guitarist". And don't act so surprised that people here are treating you like you don't have a clue. That's not an assault on your character - it is simply an accurate assessment of where you are in your jazz studies.
You've learned 3 tunes after several years. Or maybe it is 5, I don't know, but either way you're not a jazz guitarist and the new path ("no improvisation"....lol, sorry but the concept of "no improv" is so ridiculous to even a lowly non-pro like me who jams with others twice a week and plays a monthly gig) you've laid out for yourself is not going to make you a jazz guitarist.
I learned 3 tunes this week and led them in a guitar trio jam a couple nights ago. Not pro level, but you know, good enough to jam with others in real time at reasonable tempos and take solos and trade 4's, 2's, 1's, tag endings, etc. And I'm barely a lowly amateur jazz guitarist, with still so much to learn!
You say on one hand you like feeding the soloist chords ("as written", lol), but you also say you think all the soloing is stupid. You are not making sense, which is another reason why I think you are just frustrated and looking for an out.
Nobody will want to play with you in a jazz combo if you play chords as written and don't understand tag endings and can't interact with the group. That's just the truth. They may play with you if they have to, but decent players won't want to. Do you want to be that guy? I doubt it.
There is just so much that is over your head still. Again, not an assault on your character...but it is relevant to what you are saying.
I hope you persevere and see the light.
Good luck to you.
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I'm going to hop in on this for a few reasons.
1. Mr. Beaumont seems to be trying to draw a distinction between "improvising" and "soloing" that I think maybe some people are missing. Everyone in the band is always improvising. Soloing is one person stepping to the foreground and playing above the accompaniment. Ideally there is improvising involved in a solo but that's not always the case. Improvising is the life blood of the jazz tradition. Soloing is not. Listen to anything pre-Louis Armstrong for case-in-point.
2. This discussion has validated Mostly Other People Do the Killing's recording as a real provocative work of art. Why? Because this is EXACTLY the discussion they are trying to elicit. In interviews they talk about the fine line between improvisation and regurgitating licks - the bizarre notion of "jazz as America's classical music" and the paradox of people being so tied to tradition and so outspoken about improvisation. They want people to do two things. The first is to listen to music more carefully. They want people to listen to them and say ... "trane didn't breath there" or "Miles tone was darker for this" etc. They think that's how people should listen to music so they're trying to provoke that and they're willing to take scathing criticism to do it. The second is to really think about what is important to the music. Is it improvisation that makes jazz jazz? If it is then why do we put so much wait on learning Bird licks and regurgitating them note for note.
3. If your improvised comping sounded bad that one time. Try it another 250 times and then come back and tell me if it's still bad. Probably will be. But I wager it'll be better.
It's very interesting stuff. So the answer to your question is this: No. It's not pointless. It has a point and was actually (as proven by this discussion) extremely effective in driving that point home.
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Originally Posted by Broyale
Transcribe the piano part for any well known standard. Check it against the Real Book changes. Then check it against the next chorus the pianist comps. They won't be the same.
Also - if I'm soloing - and the drummer drops out and you play the same thing you played the chorus before when he was going full on snare and ride then you are not comping effectively. Sorry. You're not. If I start a solo by playing very sparsely and arhythmically and you play the same thing you played on the last chorus of the last guys solo when he was double timing and playing super outside then you are not comping effectively. Sorry. You're absolutely not.
So sure... you might be playing the tunes but you are not playing them well and you are not engaged and - to be quite frank - you are actually not comping.
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Broyale,
I greatly sympathize with you. I MUCH prefer comping rhythms to anything else. Freddie Green was my absolute guitar hero. He never took a bona fide guitar solo.
This being said, I solo all the time. It is part of music--particularly jazz, blues, and rock. (Even when I played in an old-school country band, the name of the game was hot--but short--solos during the breaks between the vocalist's singing.)
You can really nail jazz down as an art form by being sensitive to "the jazz." In the 20s that's what they called the solos. The other stuff--stating the head of the tune and taking it back home by restating the tune--wasn't "the jazz."
My advice, of course, is do whatever the heck you want to do. It's a big world. However, to really appreciate this music we all enjoy--not just the Great American Songs that we work and rework on the guitar--it is important to listen to what musicians are doing to these songs in their solos.
Someone mentioned Wes Montgomery. He is an absolutely great artist to focus on. For a big chunk of his career he put out records that appealed to mainstream record buyers. He--and his producer, Creed Taylor--made sure that the song was well served by statement and restatement of the theme. However, Wes used great creativity in bringing a very bluesy approach to bop in his solos. He used many devices other than just octaves, and he was a master of the chord melody. Highly recommended.
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Also - and I could be wrong so any other older guys can feel free to step in and lead me to the light - to uphold Freddie Green's comping as your ideal is to misunderstand comping and to misunderstand Freddie's role in the Basie band. Freddie Green style comping is an essential tool for any competent guitarist. It's an art in and of itself and is WAY harder than most beginners would think (try keeping rock-solid quarter notes for all of Shiny Stockings with Basie's orchestra laying back so hard off the beat that they're almost behind you - not easy). But - and this is a big but - Freddie Green was not comping in the traditional sense. Basie was comping - little chord pads... accents... counter-melodies... bringing the band in and out etc. Freddie was more an extension of the bass player and drummer. Jo Jones was one of the first really active drummers so Freddie locked the time in. He didn't ebb and flow with the soloist because that wasn't his job. Listen to what Basie does at the piano and Jo Jones does with his snare and you've got comping.
I got the shout from Shiny Stockings stuck in my head before I even finished typing the word "Shiny" ... damn that's the stuff.
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