Allan Holdsworth - Good? or just Difficult?

[jbernstein91]

It's true. I have heard the Allan story about Miles before as well from people who know Miles and Allan. Also, Miles offered that gig to Scott Henderson who turned it down as well for somewhat similar reasons:

"I was offered the Miles gig in the 90's after Robben Ford quit, but I turned it down because I wanted to play with Zawinul. At that time, Miles was performing Cyndi Lauper tunes, playing all night with his back to the audience, and pouring beer on his musicians on stage. He also had a front man who was running around like David Lee Roth - no thanks. At least I got to talk with Miles on the phone, but he told me he wanted to play some of my music from the Spears album - I guess that's where he heard me play. I thought if he wants to play my music, he must be really desperate for tunes.... Zawinul hadn't entered his one chord vamp period yet and was writing some brilliant compositions, so my decision was a no-brainer."

Scott Henderson Discussion :: View topic - Miles Davis bands


And stratology, I agree with you 100 %: Allan is absolutely unique and uncompromising in his vision.

Wow, I did not know that! I guess it's no surprise that Miles wanted to get Holdsworth to play in his group given that he clearly had good taste in guitarists. And Scott Henderson was succinctly persuasive in listing the reasons for turning Miles's offer down.

[tribalfusion]

Wow, I did not know that! I guess it's no surprise that Miles wanted to get Holdsworth to play in his group given that he clearly had good taste in guitarists. And Scott Henderson was succinctly persuasive in listing the reasons for turning Miles's offer down.

Podcast ? GuitarWank


A great podcast with Scott Henderson and Bruce Forman and Scott talks about the Miles thing and why he turned him down...lots of fun!

[AndreeH]

No he doesn't read music. He can't even play using regular chord analysis as he uses his own way of naming the scales and the chords.

[AndreeH]

He's one of the few players that are recognisable after one or two notes. Strongly committed to his own vision - when Miles offered him a gig with his band, Holdsworth turned him down, preferred to tour with his own band.

Are you sure about this, where did you hear/read that?

[stratology]

Are you sure about this, where did you hear/read that?

IIRC, he mentioned it in an interview with Guitar Player Magazine.

[sunnysideup]

The thing is with Holdsworth is that he is avant garde, and quite happy to be so.

McLaughlin a few years ago cited Holdsworth as the greatest contemporary guitarist (mind you a couple of years later he cited Jeff Beck - and Jeff is definitely not avant garde!)

I can't think offhand of any other avant garde guitarist who has had any commercial success, and it's not as if Holdsworth has had much! Actually I can hardy think of any other avant garde guitarists at all.

[AndreeH]

The thing is with Holdsworth is that he is avant garde, and quite happy to be so.

Not big on genre labels per se, but no Holdsworth is not what you would call Avant Garde in the regular sense.

[christianm77]

The thing is with Holdsworth is that he is avant garde, and quite happy to be so.

McLaughlin a few years ago cited Holdsworth as the greatest contemporary guitarist (mind you a couple of years later he cited Jeff Beck - and Jeff is definitely not avant garde!)

I can't think offhand of any other avant garde guitarist who has had any commercial success, and it's not as if Holdsworth has had much! Actually I can hardy think of any other avant garde guitarists at all.

Hmmm.... Holdsworth avant garde? I don't think so... Individual, certainly.

Tremendously influential too, obviously. Aside from being a big influence on the shred movement and many metal/rock players, I would say most of the current crop of mainstream contemporary players (Heckselman, Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg and of course Tim Miller) owe a huge debt to the aesthetic of Allan's playing and his harmonic approach, even where they don't use a fully fledged Allan style legato technique.....

So Allan has become, perhaps retroactively, a very mainstream figure in jazz guitar.

In terms of the music - I would say that Bill Frisell, Pat Metheny and have all made more avant garde recordings than Allan. As far as true avant garde guitarists, well you have Mary Halvorson, Fred Frith, Mark Ribot and the granddaddy, Derek Bailey...

[jbear]

"Steven Hawking...Intelligent or just hard to understand?"
The title of this thread makes me wanna punch something.
I'm sure it's just the wording...and I don't want to punch a person...just...something!

[shelleytele]

I've always loved Allan's playing! Never knew he turned down Miles.

[Eric Rowland]

Big Al politely observes FG.... J Berlin makes brief appearance.

[Eric Rowland]

I've always loved Allan's playing! Never knew he turned down Miles.

That's one reason I like Big Al....he compromises NOT. It would have been a big career move for him to join Miles. There's just no one like him...or ever will be.

[sjl]

I have all the respect possible for Mr. Holdsworth but his music sounds like chinese to me. May be I am strange because I don`t like Metheny neither. I agree with a friend about this definition: good musicians bad composers.
That's only a personal point of view, it is my taste.
I absolutely love Frisell and Rosenwinkel at the other hand.

[Banksia]

"Steven Hawking...Intelligent or just hard to understand?"
The title of this thread makes me wanna punch something.
I'm sure it's just the wording...and I don't want to punch a person...just...something!

I started this thread mainly because I couldn't believe that a jazz guitar forum could have endless threads and posts about guys re-hashing the same old tunes and lines from the 40s and 50s and treat them like gods while completely ignoring the most original improvisational guitarist of the last 40 years.

This was just a Holdsworth thread - anything and everything Holdsworth, facts, opinions, information, appreciation, criticism. The title is, I think, self-explanatory. We have had many posts stating that even widely-respected jazz players couldn't work out what AH was doing. To me, that means he is difficult at times.

Is difficult automatically good? Of course not. How many physicists and engineers did it take to build a nuclear weapon? Does the complexity of that task mean that nuclear weapons were a great idea? Look at the combined centuries of instrument making and the training of musicians that is required to put a symphony orchestra together. Does that guarantee that everything they play will be great music?

It's just a Holdsworth thread and, since I'm posting on Page 11, I'd say it was a fairly successful thread.

[jbear]

Yeah...I get it. I just had a reaction to the title.
The physicist thing though...gotta say...that seems a pretty classic false equivalence argument. Of course it's been a long time since I took that class.
Regardless...we are in agreement...Holdsworth...get him or not...is a monster musician and innovator.

[Banksia]

No worries. I mainly post on Rugby League forums these days and I think the general level of hostility there is affecting my overall attitude in posts and replies.

My biggest beef with AH is his tone. I prefer a guitar sounding like a guitar. I understand that all musicians have so many more options (in sound modification) these days. You could also validly question whether a solid body axe has a specific tone, given the number of amp and speaker options available.

Also for fans of AH's early trio, there are a couple of good Chad Wackerman albums out featuring James Muller on guitar.

Scream - Chad Wackerman | Songs, Reviews, Credits | AllMusic

Chad Wackerman: Legs Eleven

[jbear]

Sometimes I love his tone...sometimes...not so much. I tend toward lighter processing in jazz and fusion. If I'm listening to Yes or similar...I dig effects.
I am not a synthaxe fan at all...like you...tonal personalities aside...I like guitar tones coming from guitar players.
You play rugby? I'm a hockey player! We should fight sometime. Just kidding (not sure I have to say that, but...).

[Robertkoa]

Allan has changed just about everyone who's heard him ... the same could be said for another great , John Mclaughlin . Or Jimi Hendrix ... or Jeff Beck ... or Santana .

The problem with me is always in composition . Players could have the most earth-shattering approaches to improvisation ... but if the composition is not happening ... it's not happening .

Good compositions for these musicians ... the ones that lead to transcedence , are extremely rare . When you find them , they're worth more than all the gold in the world .

In the end , it will always be about the composition in my opinion .

I remember sitting for hours on the boardwalk for days , listening to "Diamond Dust" by Jeff Beck over and over . Thats what magic does to you .

When it comes to Allen , one of my favorite pieces is "Belzebub" with Bill Bruford . Pure magic .

" ...songs are like waves , man ... you can't just cut the 'perfect' wave..."
- Jimi Hendrix -

Yes. Often the best Players , on Instruments are not necessarily the best Writers.

Obvious in Classical Music where the primary Goal is to recreate the Works of the Masters.

Just because you can play the Heck out of your Instrument does not mean you are Bach or Beethoven Lennon McCartney ,Stevie Wonder / Berlin, Kerns Gershwin ( insert great Composer here).

In Jazz - as an outsider it is unusual because most of the 'Masters' of the Repertoire are Pop Composers from the 40's and 50's , some 60's with occasional contributions from Jazz Musicians/ Bandleaders who compose.

BUT the Musician is supposed to and often actually capable of (!) melodic variations, reharmonizations,
rhythmatizations ( changing Tempo / Time Signature / Rhythms etc.) Or completely wiping the Melody and merely using the changes for Improvising.
Then some Players become known for their own Style using that Repertoire- increasingly harder to do since we have "heard it all" or much of it at this point and in Rock also most innovation was 60s through 80's etc.

Then there are Stylists..who come up with a Unique Style
like Holdsworth/ Hendrix/ EVH /Santana / Wes / Joe Pass/ Benson /EJ/ Carlton etc. etc.
And Metheny is a good example of the whole picture from Stylist / Interpreter/ Composer...
Often the more a 'Stylist ' innovator someone is the more Polarizing they can be and some love their Music some hate it.
And you have people like Mclaughlin who embrace the Music but are more interested in taking it somewhere else. Innovators.
Or Virtuoso Interpreter/ Players like Coltrane who leave their stamp and it becomes part of the Language..like Hendrix did for Rock.
The Rock Innovators had the built in advantage that Rock became more Pop ( popular ) than Jazz ever was and despite being less sophisticated in many ways more household names from Rock ..

I am surprised that the Grooves in Jazz have not changed much since it's beginnings...but it is still early in it's History....right ?





I laughed at the Guy who said he wasn't sure if he liked Holdsworth but has 7 (or was it 9 ) Albums just in case...

Usually the 'Stylist ' Players are great at what they do- I guess Holdsworth's one of them..

[Thumpalumpacus]

He's an amazing player whose songwriting doesn't move me at all. I had Metal Fatigue way back when, and while it was cool that, as a young guitarist, I was hearing some wide-open possibilities on the instrument, the songs just didn't speak to me.

[Robertkoa]

I listened to him a lot before I got into jazz. To enjoy his music you really have to try to not compare it to anything else you've heard. His stuff is pretty harmonically intense which is why I think most people don't enjoy it.

I really like his chordal playing. I always noticed how Eric Johnson's chordal playing is a lot like his technique/voicing wise, just not as harmonically involved.

I'd love to see him play some coltrane solo's as he's probably in a small group of people who could execute it, with justice, it on the guitar.

Tone is also amazing

Has anyone seen his lesson/instructional video? Here's part of it, even if you're not into his playing there's loads of great advice for any jazz musician.

I like the pretty chords- although the Chorus Effect kind of homogenizes the chords- I don't hear the intervals and 'color ' differences as much as 'no chorus'.

I also didn't think that one Chord was 'ugly' but Holdsworth is a World Class Guitar Star and I am an Unknown Guy on the Internet...lol.

I think most would agree Holdsworth is certainly great at what he does.

A more difficult ' Test' would be is Yngwie Malmsteen great at what he does ?
I think he is ...definitely...but I don't want to listen to it.

Though as a Musician I personally would not put Malmsteen near the same level as Holdsworth.

Amazing that Brecker could supposedly not 'get' what Holdsworth was doing.

I imagine Brecker could have picked up his Horn and played something similar if he wanted to....ever hear Brecker 'live'?

[Fidelcaster]

A more difficult ' Test' would be is Yngwie Malmsteen great at what he does ?
I think he is ...definitely...but I don't want to listen to it.

Though as a Musician I personally would not put Malmsteen near the same level as Holdsworth.

I think Malmsteen isn't great at what Holdsworth does:

[Robertkoa]

I think Malmsteen isn't great at what Holdsworth does:

Not what I meant -I meant Malmsteen is great at what Malmsteen does and Holdsworth is great at what Holdsworth does.

I personally would not equate Malmsteen with Holdsworth who is much more highly regarded than Malmsteen. Holdsworth is a much more complete Musician in most ways.

I don't listen to Malmsteen but he greatly admired Paganini and wowed Crowds with his Playing for decades with his Playing...somewhat like Paganini himself did...quite an accomplishment. And made a lot of money with his Guitar.

Actually I never listened to Holdsworth much either.

But these Guys who have developed an identifiable Style..whether it's Holdsworth or Malmsteen or Benson or Gilmour or James Taylor ..Wes..got to give them credit for earning their Branch on the Guitar Tree....we can debate who's Branch is bigger or closer to the Root or whatever...
I also think it's very cool if a Player makes lots of Money...it does not offend me at all !
And I don't care if he's not as good as the broke Players...

[Bluedawg]

I'm a fan of Holdsworth, but his playing can get boring .... especially live with a trio

I have lots of favorites, but my favorite chord work is probably from "Mental Medication" on the first UK album ... the same as the "Dead of Night" tune linked above.

That Malmsteen cover is pretty good .... I still like the original better, but Malmsteen can be fun