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The higher up the mountain you go....the less people you see.
Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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05-09-2013 09:35 PM
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The intro riff to "Metal Fatigue" is pure brilliance. Pity about the singing.
Guy
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I agree. I love Joe Pass for that very reason (when he plays with a band obviously). His timing is (was) incredible - coming from up, down, on top of, beneath, in-between, etc. (Check out his CD "Intercontinental"). I have also always loved the timing (among all other things) in the version of "Passion, Grace, and Fire" on the CD "Electric Rendezvous" by Al Di Meola and Paco de Lucía. I'm sure most here have heard this tune, but it will be a treat for those who haven't (link): Originally Posted by Vihar
As for Holdsworth, he's an incredible guitarist for sure, but I just can't seem to get into him much. I like the tune "Three Sheets To The Wind" on "Road Games" and that's about it. The opening run he does (it's slow but melodic) that starts off the solo in that tune is really hip (very Eddie Van Halen like - Holdsworth was a huge influence on EVH). But that's about as far as it goes for me. When I'm looking forward to the long solo ending and the melody returning to bring the song home, it's obviously not doing it for me, and I'm not going to "force myself" to get into something that really doesn't speak to me deep down in my soul. Amazing talent though.Last edited by BirdSong; 06-12-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Jamming over Proto Cosmos - Assaf Levy Group,
Hope you'll enjoy
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What about Tokyo Dream on the same album? You're not hearing any beauty there? Even just in the chordal stuff alone?
To each his own....
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Good Lord! I sure hope that's NOT what "forward" means in jazz. If it is, I'll return to being a classical player, or take up Heavy Metal or something. Granted, he is a technical giant, and to say he was talented would be a great understatement. But, to me, his music has to be the most un-hip, lifeless, lamest techno music I've heard in the jazz world. It's not even categorized as "jazz" in my mind. So God help us if that's what "going forward" means in the jazz genre! Originally Posted by Smitty
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We could only be so lucky that jazz moved forward the way Allan has. Originally Posted by BirdSong
Good Lord! I sure hope that's NOT what "forward" means in jazz. If it is, I'll return to being a classical player, or take up Heavy Metal or something. Granted, he is a technical giant, and to say he was talented would be a great understatement. But, to me, his music has to be the most un-hip, lifeless, lamest techno music I've heard in the jazz world. It's not even categorized as "jazz" in my mind. So God help us if that's what "going forward" means in the jazz genre!
Dave Liebman told me and a few others (Vic Juris was there at the time as well) a very funny story about seeing Allan play at a festival in Israel.
Lieb was in the audience with non other than Michael Brecker and they looked at each other during the show and one asked the other: "do you have any idea what he's doing? No. [Shrugs shoulders] Neither do I...but I wish I did."
Liebman told this story with the utmost respect and admiration which is not something to take lightly from one of the real giants of modern jazz and harmony and Juris expressed much the same. Of course Brecker and Liebman went up to Allan after the show and Allan was apologetic about his playing as always.
There was more to the story but suffice it to say that it was both hilarious and heart-warming.
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I have never met or heard of any great musicians who do not acknowledge Holdsworth's genius, even if his style of music is not to their taste.
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Agreed. But call me old school (I'm old), what makes jazz "jazz" is not just technical mastery - but a great characteristic of the genre is that it is hip. It is intrinsically pleasing to the human ear. It's an extension of blues, which is an expression of a human condition. It is pure, and it speaks to the human soul in a very natural way. It innately connects with us, almost as if the music were present all of the time within us, before we hear it. That's the essence of jazz, and that is what defines it as jazz. Now, if we lived in The Matrix, or Skynet or something, I'm sure it's cyber creators would find Holdsworth's music to be a natural expression of their cyber-condition.... but not human beings. Let's call the music what it is..... TECHNO, not jazz! It's mellow techno music with a heck of a guitarist. Originally Posted by jbernstein91
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Originally Posted by BirdSong
I think that Holdsworth's music is a product of his being influenced by jazz and 20th century classical music, but in the final analysis it's not exactly jazz, and he'll readily admit it. All traces of bebop are conspicuously absent, as is a great deal of the blues. There's not enough jazz left in it to really call it jazz but it doesn't matter and only serves to side-track meaningful discussion.
Whatever you choose to call it, his music is amazing, and any student of jazz or classical music should check his stuff out, if nothing else than for his use of voice-leading, which is incredible.
BTW, there is no music on the planet that is 100% "intrinsically pleasing to the human ear", as studies have shown.
Your views on "what is hip" are nothing more than that - your views. Sometimes it's easy to forget that.
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Originally Posted by Banksia
Personally, I rarely can stand a note the guy plays, but such is the case with art. Its all what moves the individual. If he were a piano player or horn player would anyone want to listen to it?? I think not, but of course I could be wrong. I think because what he does is technically hard on guitar, it draws a lot of guys in. Just my opinion, YMMV and all of that.Last edited by Tag; 06-21-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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That's ridiculous. As I posted earlier, Mike Brecker and Dave Liebman, arguably the 2 most advanced sax players around at the time both marveled simultaneously at Allan's playing and I'm pretty sure they weren't "taken in" by the fact that it was on the guitar and went up to him after the show to compliment him profusely. Originally Posted by Tag
Same goes for Metheny, Chick Corea (who wanted Allan for one of his bands), Tony Williams, John McLaughlin, Kurt Rosenwinkel and countless others.
Unless you think all these musicians are just impressed by how "hard" what he does is and your hearing is more "accurate".
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I'm glad that there seems to be a consensus that his music is hard. Because if it were easy, everybody, and I mean everybody, would be playing Holdsworth lines and then I might not like it anymore. So while I certainly don't like it because it is difficult, I thank the gods that it is.
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Originally Posted by Tag
One minute you say that its being hard makes people like it. The next minute you say that people like it irrespective of how hard it is. Originally Posted by Tag
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What makes Allan so special is that he is unique--almost a tautology. Sure there are tons and tons of great players. But the vast majority of them are interchangeable. A lot of guys want respect for being "artists" but really have never done anything remotely original. Rehash and rehash and rehash. It's not unique to music. In just about every field, professionalism has a flip side that is predictable and stale and dead. And that is what draws people to Allan. Whatever he is doing, it is not predictable and stale and dead. He can play stuff on the guitar and say honestly to himself: nobody has ever played a line like that before. That's why he sulks and procrastinates so much, because his standards for what he expects from himself in terms of originality are so much fucking higher than others', way way higher.
Last edited by jster; 06-21-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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Perhaps all of the above is true -- he is utterly unique a true artist, no one is remotely like him.
But so was Johnny Smith. There are many aspects to Mr Smith's playing that Allan can't approach. Mr Legato can only dream of Mr Smith's legato chordal improvs.
But I could listen to Johnny all day. Allan only once in a while. Allan's weakness to me is his tone. He will never be the Johnny Hodges of the guitar. And that god damn synth axe is beyond horrible sound wise .
He was always at his best as a sideman--UK, soft Machine, Gong, Bruford, Lifetime.
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Originally Posted by jster
Again, its in what one likes. Different does not make something good, and being musical in music is the #1 criteria IMO, so its all what one finds musical. PERSONALLY, I just do not find his playing very musical, but that is all up to the individual.
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Originally Posted by Spirit59
Allan doesn't "play out of tonal centers" if you mean what is commonly accepted by that term. Allan won't "tell me this himself" because it's just not the case. Of course he isn't playing bebop but that's far from the only way to address individual chords as opposed to finding a scale and having a go at it.
There's a reason Liebman and Brecker were gushing over Allan and it wasn't because he doesn't really "play on the chords"
I am reminded in this thread why I usually don't bother to post here.
I have mentioned first hand conversations with straight ahead players of the highest levels who have nothing but wonderful things about Allan and who have the ears to know better.
Joe Diorio, Dave Liebman, Vic Juris, Scott Henderson, Oz Noy, Mike Stern are people whom I have heard personally go out of their way to laud Allan and others such as Brecker, Metheny, Corea, Rosenwinkel have been vocal on this one in print and elsewhere. Even if you aren't able to hear it yourself you should probably think twice about saying some of this stuff.
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I think Allan's music is kind of a bridge between tonal and atonal music. I remember a video interview where he said he avoids playing blues; as soon as his fingers would execute a bluesy line, he deliberately goes elsewhere.
I wonder if his band members memorize those changes, or they need to read it, at least for a while. I guess once you can memorize a couple of Holdsworth tunes, or even whistle/hum their melodies, you've entered his world for good. So far it's only happened with "Road Games" to me - well, at least part of it (minus the solos), and I don't think such a tonal tune counts. lol
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Yeah - I hear the lick - at 2:35
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Originally Posted by kris
I do believe you've struck gold!
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One thing I'll say about Allan is with fans like his, he doesn't need a bodyguard to protect him....
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Kris - many thanks for finding this. Originally Posted by kris
I enjoyed reading it and although I must admit to skipping large chunks of the analysis, I think I now have a better technical understanding of what Allan has been trying to do.
I am a little baffled by Allan's apparently consistent opinion over many years that the guitar was the wrong instrument for him and that he would rather have been playing a horn. If that was so, why didn't he start playing one ? He managed to perform successfully with the violin many years ago.
Another surprise to me was that although a number of classical composers are referenced in the thesis as having influenced Allan, Messiaen is not one of them. To me, what Allan has done in terms of creating his own scales to form unique, but pleasing, harmonies, is almost directly analogous to the work of Messiaen from a listener's perspective. I'm sure this observation could be shot down from the theory standpoint, but I tend to put them both in the same box. If you do not know his work and are curious, listen to Turangalîla-Symphonie,
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I find that weird as well. And when it comes to guitar, he says he dislikes having to use distortion for the horn-like sustain he needs. There are many sustainer devices and guitar synth systems out there now, both known and virtually unknown, that he could have at least tried. Originally Posted by newsense
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