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No Holdsworth is a great composer as well as player.
Originally Posted by whiskey02
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07-29-2011 07:37 PM
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Distance versus Desire. Beautiful. Originally Posted by whiskey02
Also check out some compositions on Road Games and Metal Fatigue. Beautiful.
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Sometimes what an individual perceives as poor time will be an amazing skill of being able to play anywhere in the pocket for another one.
To me, a player's time - where and how he places his notes - is one of the most appealing attributes that can create a recognizable, signature sound.
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Originally Posted by joe pass jr
Of all the weird things I have read on the net about great players, that has to be the most bizarre.
At best, i can only assume you mean his time is not as constantly placed as Martino's or Joe's (from 'Catch Me' days ). But that's more about feel.
His groove is serious. Best to read, as Jack says, his Who's who (some of the greatest improvisers on the planet past and present) of people that have asked him to play for them... I'm guessing they'll disagree with ya!!!
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Actually, Originally Posted by jzucker
WTF??? Miles Davis, Mike Brecker, Joe Henderson and McCoy Tyner didn't think so. Nuff said.
I read an interview where Scofield mentions that Miles used to get on him because he had a tendency to play behind the beat or something like that.
I really dig his earlier stuff and have most of his CD's through Time On My Hands and his CD with Pat Metheny. I saw him live in 79 at my college. He was playing with Dave Leiberman . I had never seen anyone play like he did before that. Like him or not he is one of the few player with a distinct voice on the instrument.
I even had two of his books (which I sold unfortunately as they are out of print)
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That settles it then. Pat Metheny, Charlie Haden, Eddie Harris, Medeski, Martin & Wood, Bill Frisell, Brad Mehldau, Mavis Staples, Government Mule, Jack DeJohnette, Joe Lovano, Phil Lesh, Tony Williams, Jim Hall, Ron Carter, Herbie Hancock, Joe Henderson, Dave Holland, Terumasa Hino and Brecker just couldn't hear it I guess. Originally Posted by JohnW400
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That's a very different thing. Miles said that in an interview. Originally Posted by JohnW400
But it's not saying anything, really. Sco was in his band. Stern was in his band and he told Stern to go to Notes Anonymous. Miles said a lot of things to his musicians. That was Miles. Great musicians grin when they hear that about Sco. Sco's time is just beautiful. It's on when the music wants urgency, laid back when it asks to be, and bendy when required.
It's organic and 100% about the music.
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Yea... the 60's and early 70's were fun... I always dug that British influence. Still dig Bruford's comps. Didn't Miles and most of the big name jazz players bring in Holdsworth and other more of what I have always heard as progressive rock players for their influence, to see where it might go. Maybe I'm wrong... but does anyone consider Alan H. a jazz player, maybe a great rock player who covers some jazz tunes or pulls from some aspects of jazz. That's not a bad thing and I've listened and seen most of his bands, and the rest from that period. I was there... I just didn't think I was going to a jazz performance. I also went to see many of the great jazz players during those years. To me there was a difference, not good or bad. Obviously I had more fun at the rock shows... but that's not about the style of music or is it...
Well I vote that he is "good" at what he does and has done. I don't see or hear his music as difficult... would need some sort of measuring system, or as compared to what... If anything... one of the difficulties I have as a listener is he is too simple harmonically, his tempos are too slow... they drag on too long and he usually combines those elements. That being said... I have always respected him as a player and still due... He has to be thought of as one of the great guitarist who helped elevate the appreciation of the guitar in our current music world.
On a different note... Vihar... ???
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Actually Miles thought generally white guys played behind the beat. It's on youtube somewhere. Here it is right at the beginning:
Last edited by jster; 07-31-2011 at 04:57 PM.
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Wow, that was a lame interview excerpt! Originally Posted by jster
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Yeah. Actually the whole interview is stupid. Just about every question Reasoner asks is condescending and a barely concealed attempt to get Miles to say something controversial. "Do you have enough money?" "You used to pimp right?" blah blah. So great with the internet now fewer people are watching those fools. Originally Posted by M-ster
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I don't know why you guy are raging over it, I thought the questions were valid, and Miles didn't seem to be pissed off at all. They often laughed together in that interview.
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Well Miles has a sense of humor and probably forgot the whole thing when Reasoner left. My point is that it is obnoxious to ask one of the greatest American artists whether he used to pimp 40 years ago especially when it is not even really true according to Miles. That is condescending. Ditto do you have enough money? Really, what kind of question is that? Really, the attitude is no different from that of the cops who pulled Miles over. And are you anti-white? WTF? I mean if Miles somehow went there fine. But those were the best questions Reasoner could come up with and they were pathetic. Originally Posted by Vihar
Last edited by jster; 07-31-2011 at 07:40 PM.
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I understand where you're coming from, but I think Miles had a great understanding of what showbusiness is. He would probably have hated to come off as someone sacred and these kind of questions actually suited his badass image pretty well.
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I've been a fan of AH since I first discovered him on Jean-Luc Ponty's "Enigmatic Ocean" record. I have the IOU album (in vinyl) in the original black cover. I bought it from Allan himself at a concert at The Golden Bear in Huntington Beach. The pressing number on the run out says "AH-100" so it was the first pressing.
I think that Holdsworth has developed his own sense of harmony. It's not a bunch of ii V I's at different locations in the circle of 5ths although he's not opposed to using that harmony if it meets his needs. His scale concepts also jump out of classic chord/scale/mode theory and into his own tonality. He's one of the few jazz musicians out there who are truly changing music and pushing it to a new level.
That new sense of harmony is difficult for many people to appreciate. And certainly, even as a super fan, there are times when it's just too much too fast. But when I'm in the mood for that style and AH is in the zone it transcends jazz and just becomes a flow of harmony and music.
I've often heard people complain that his soloing is "endless noodling". A friend of mine is quite a good classical guitarist who studied with David Tannenbaum and is currently working on his PhD in musicology. I played some AH for him and even with his classical background he immediately said "I don't see how people can call that noodling. If they think that's noodling then they simply don't understand or can't hear his harmony."
I think he's not only brilliant, but is one of the few truly original musicians playing today.
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So Reg when you hear his stuff, is it harmonically transparent to you? I thought he supposedly played some pretty out chords and voicings. I'll believe whatever you tell me, but how would you explain the fact that his stuff sounds so different from everybody elses? Is what I thought was interesting harmony really all just atmospherics? I thought he had some harmonic tricks of his own. If you were just talking about his stuff from 30 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised. But is that really true of his mature stuff? I'm not trying to defend Holdsworth so much as to better understand harmony for myself. What would you say about mature Steely Dan? They pack 30 chords into those songs. Somebody once argued that no popular music act ever used more chords. Are they much more sophisticated harmonically? Originally Posted by Reg
So what is harmonic sophistication beyond the number of chords? Is it a lot of chords with cool resolutions? Is it big chords/vocings? Or is it something that makes you wonder how'd they do that?
(Also, I was wondering: can I get an RSS feed for all Reg's comments?
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Last edited by jster; 08-01-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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AH is beyond my comprehension, I am not embarrassed to say that. Phenomenal technique and other worldly concept. My only negative and it's a big enough negative to put me off listening to him is that there is a lack of dynamics in his playing, he seems to stick volume wise in the same register for too long which is hard to listen to (for me!).
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LMAO! Originally Posted by jster
(Also, I was wondering: can I get an RSS feed for all Reg's comments? )
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Love Holdsworth.
He was definitely a large figure in my mind as i came up playing. All the hot rock and fusion players wonder what he is doing, and the jazz guys don't care, but he makes really cool music and has played at an incredible level for over 30 years.
He may not appeal to many people, but people that like to practice and get better at guitar playing marvel at his technique and fluidity. One of the fastest non-lick playing guitarists ever.
On the other hand, the comment above about his dynamics is true to some extent. He is too perfect and alien in tone and dynamics, i personally must think in blue-sy phrases, cuz thats what I got, and they demand dynamics and phrasing ( rests and such) to sound cool.
Allan sounds cool even without the blues.
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I don't think you can term Alan Holdsworth's use of harmony as sophisticated... maybe sophisticated Rock use of harmonic concepts.
A better term might be complexity when discussing harmony, sophisticated tends to be somewhat subjective.
The amount of chords has no real affect on complexity... could relate to difficulty of performance. The harmonic sophistication or complexity usually has more to do with methodologies, systems of control, the amount or layers or implications a concept of harmonic construction has ... what's behind or the source of the chordal concept. The part most are unaware of. Steely Dan or Donald Fagen would be similar situation, I always dug SD grooves... wonder why. Was it the music or the players... for me it was the players, the music was way cool but somewhat basic, but the players made it groove. Don't take me wrong, very ingenuous and innovative. But not technically complex... I guess there is a level of sophistication in ability to use different harmonic concepts and keeping a pop audience interested. But if your going to call jazz... not simple but not complex. If I related to rock etc... could easily be considered complex... But enough of the BS... pick a tune and lets make an analysis... and we'll see how complex the harmony is. Try and pick tune(s) that don't take you too much time to play... Don't use his so called jazz covers... Keep in mind most of the tunes we tend to call jazz standards were composed at least 50 years ago. There not complicated either. Reg
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Thanks Reg...for making me want to sell my guitars!! Reg, The Man...you don't mind if I call you "The Man" do ya? I didn't know harmony came in layers.
Honestly, I shouldn't even open my mouth because I am obviously clueless about "the part most are unaware of". I'm going to quietly get into bed now. 
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I'm definitely not the Man... And you are probable very aware harmony has more than one level of understanding.... G7 can be a part of many chord patterns, other than simply V7 of C. Which is Dominant cadence, a level of understanding resolution, a method of control.
Could have G7 going to C7 in a blues in G. Which would be a different level of organization of Dominant chords, which is a method of control and another level of harmonic organization in it's self.
Just as you can 30 chords in a tune you can have 30 organizational methods of controlling how those chords work together. Most people are unaware because they have not thought about it... The levels of harmonic methods and context can become very complex... but still are simply collections of notes...(it's not that complicated).
Your obviously very aware of how words can have many meanings, depending on context... your awareness of the layers of meaning involving the Miles interview. Naivety with use of words is similar with music. Just because your unaware... doesn't mean it's not implied.
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Nice. Thanks man. That helps. So are you saying that with AH and SD and the older standards there is just a limited number of "methods of control" present in a tune? But with tunes like Olympus there are many more methods of control? So to put it crudely, are there just too many dominant cadences in AH, SD and the older standards and not enough cadence #29? And how many (reasonable) "methods of control" are there? Can you put a number on it?
The thing was that I felt like I would probably never in this life write a chord progression as involved as AH or SD, so to hear them described as "simple" was eye opening. But as I love having my eyes opened more than anything, I have to ask these further questions.
Thanks so much.
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To me what is great about Holdsworth is that he seems to have developed his own melodic language. What I mean is that he does play on changes and he does use arpeggios, scales and chromaticism. but he manages not to sound bop influenced at all (which is maybe more difficult than you'd think?). I find that refreshing even if I don't like his sound or the sound his sidemen all the time.
I am not sure I would call a tune like "sixteen men of tain" or "above and below" simple. To me they are closer to jazz than rock in terms of harmony and melody. At the same time it is very far from mainstream tunes and standards.
Jens
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So, a thing can be very complex and at the same time not complicated? Originally Posted by Reg
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