John Mclaughlin's "Cherokee"

Dutchbopper · 08-21-2014, 05:38 AM

New Blog entry with full transcription.

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: John Mclaughlin's "Cherokee"

regards,

DB

**mickey.stein** · 08-21-2014, 07:52 PM

I heard that long ago and just wanted to say I appreciated your work and sharing it. Thanks.

**kris** · 08-22-2014, 03:04 AM

great work and great site!
Thanks
Kris

**mickey.stein** · 08-23-2014, 11:09 AM

I also meant to say thanks for your blog. I've probably never read a blog before so aren't any expert but this one is really good and points up a lot of terrific players I didn't know about.

**princeplanet** · 08-24-2014, 10:17 AM

I'm not a JM fan either, and this clip reminds me why!

**princeplanet** · 08-24-2014, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I'm not a JM fan either, and this clip reminds me why!

Seriously, I prefer this unknown "kid"'s take, who posted on this forum a year or so ago:

Practicing phrasing at home - Donna Lee, Cherokee

**DRS** · 08-24-2014, 10:54 AM

JM's a great guitarist but I thought the band was ready to overwhelm him at any given moment. Just as when you have the pace car bravely leading a pack of race cars round the track on a yellow. And it didn't help having an acoustic flat-top.

**Sam Sherry** · 08-24-2014, 11:57 AM

Man, I love that every time I see it. To me that is the sound of joy.

Clearly JM's publicist placed him on the show to support the album, tour and LA concert. JM, being no fool, said, "I will find a way." The Tonight Show Band was not going to break into "Miles Beyond" so Doc reached for his list of arrangements for generic jazz soloist. They settled on "Cherokee" which JM, like everybody else, learned as a kid.

Through his playing I hear JM saying, "I may never front a big band again in my life so I am going to enjoy this experience for what it is and let a whole lot of people do the same."

I also hear the band saying, "Holy shit! That was a lot more fun then when Florence Henderson was on last week! Let's play that one again!"

**vinlander** · 08-24-2014, 03:44 PM

Great blog and topic as usual.
I happen to be a huge JM fan for different reason than I also love swing and bebop.
The guy never pretended to be what he is not, but clearly few can follow him at that pace on his way...
He clearly doesn't ask himself the question shall I need to switch to the Benson picking way

**pkirk** · 08-24-2014, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I'm not a JM fan either, and this clip reminds me why!

I like John Mclaughlin, and think some of his stuff is sublime, but I think his playing is awful on this clip. Discussion of this clip surfaces every now and then, and I think it's a vehicle for the JM fans to say "but see, he can play straight ahead too". I hear mostly his noodley "1235" lick, with that annoying Bb up to D motif over and over again, and played with a horrible tone. I think the tempo is too fast for guitar, and so he just hangs on as best as he can with his muscle memory. Fish out of water. Being great at some things doesnt make you good at others. Just my opinion, though. There are a few fast guitar players who can work that context.

All my opinion and taste, of course. YMMV

**Tom Painter** · 08-24-2014, 06:12 PM

Sounds like "lets play some flash and dazzle" to wow the Tonight Show crowd...

Much better lines in this very Lester Young sounding Bird version.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-24-2014, 06:59 PM

Favorite McLaughlin playing? No.

Favorite version of Cherokee? No.

Damn entertaining? Hell yes!

**vinlander** · 08-24-2014, 07:38 PM

As much as I love JM it is not my favorite fast Cherokee version neither ...
that one is :

**fumblefingers** · 08-24-2014, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by vinlander

As much as I love JM it is not my favorite fast Cherokee version neither ...
that one is :

super fast but a bit sloppy. always thought he was. the super fast passages were a bit shorter in duration relative to JM's playing too. super fast but doesn't sustain it most of the time. impressive, but not as impressive. I like Pass better for this style. sorry.

of course Farlow was a bebop player, McLaughlin not. who was after 65' if they were "important" newcomers?

**fumblefingers** · 08-24-2014, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Man, I love that every time I see it. To me that is the sound of joy.

Clearly JM's publicist placed him on the show to support the album, tour and LA concert. JM, being no fool, said, "I will find a way." The Tonight Show Band was not going to break into "Miles Beyond" so Doc reached for his list of arrangements for generic jazz soloist. They settled on "Cherokee" which JM, like everybody else, learned as a kid.

Through his playing I hear JM saying, "I may never front a big band again in my life so I am going to enjoy this experience for what it is and let a whole lot of people do the same."

I also hear the band saying, "Holy shit! That was a lot more fun then when Florence Henderson was on last week! Let's play that one again!"

of course. this is not his bag. he was on tour and promoting it. no way was he going to turn down going on with Johnny Carson.

and sure, an archtop would have sounded better but that wasn't what he was doing then.

think about this. he was on tour playing his concerto for acoustic guitar and orchestra, and he dropped in and did this too. unprecedented, at least for the guitar.

**fumblefingers** · 08-24-2014, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Seriously, I prefer this unknown "kid"'s take, who posted on this forum a year or so ago:

Practicing phrasing at home - Donna Lee, Cherokee

that was indeed nice

**fritz jones** · 08-25-2014, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

super fast but a bit sloppy. always thought he was. the super fast passages were a bit shorter in duration relative to JM's playing too. super fast but doesn't sustain it most of the time. impressive, but not as impressive. I like Pass better for this style. sorry.

Tal's phrasing on this recording is so much hipper than Pass and JM.
Not to detract from Joe, obviously he was a master, but Tal at his prime had a special way of playing fast bebop.

Dutchbopper · 08-25-2014, 10:00 AM

I had a go at a really fast Cherokee a while ago and dudes, it's hard to play meaningful shit then. This one ain't perfect but I did not fancy another take though

A certain sloppyness creeps in soon enough at these superfast tempi, even with the likes of Tal.

Regards,

DB

**mr. beaumont** · 08-25-2014, 10:15 AM

Sounds damn good to me, Dick.

Here, if you guys really want to hear somebody struggling to say something at a high tempo on cherokee, here's me!

I think j posted this one in the Benson picking thread too...

Anyway...its why I can aporeciate what JMac can pull off in the OP'S clip.

**Patrick2** · 08-25-2014, 10:42 AM

Dutch . . . one of the nicer improvs on Cherokee that I've heard. The backing trac was a bit frustrating to me. Maybe it was because I had the volume level low? But, at times it kinda sounded like pots and pans banging around somewhere in the back ground. lolol I would have loved to hear the lines you were playing over the chords.

I really dig your playing . . . and the handle dutchbopper really fits you well. Bop on!!!!

Dutchbopper · 08-25-2014, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Sounds damn good to me, Dick.

Here, if you guys really want to hear somebody struggling to say something at a high tempo on cherokee, here's me!

I think j posted this one in the Benson picking thread too...

Anyway...its why I can aporeciate what JMac can pull off in the OP'S clip.

Yeah me too Mr. B. Pulling off such a tune at breakneck speed on a live show is no trifling matter. Nice clip, is that your kid? Cute!

Dutchbopper · 08-25-2014, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Dutch . . . one of the nicer improvs on Cherokee that I've heard. The backing trac was a bit frustrating to me. Maybe it was because I had the volume level low? But, at times it kinda sounded like pots and pans banging around somewhere in the back ground. lolol I would have loved to hear the lines you were playing over the chords.

I really dig your playing . . . and the handle dutchbopper really fits you well. Bop on!!!!

Thanks Patrick. Yeah, the backing track is not very good but it was the fastest I could find on Youtube.

Regards,

DB

**ecj** · 08-25-2014, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Dutchbopper

Thanks Patrick. Yeah, the backing track is not very good but it was the fastest I could find on Youtube.

Regards,

DB

Really nice classic tone.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-25-2014, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Dutchbopper

Yeah me too Mr. B. Pulling off such a tune at breakneck speed on a live show is no trifling matter. Nice clip, is that your kid? Cute!

Thanks, yeah, that's the older one...got a bad feeling he's gonna be a drummer

**GuyBoden** · 08-25-2014, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dutchbopper

I had a go at a really fast Cherokee a while ago and dudes, it's hard to play meaningful shit then. This one ain't perfect but I did not fancy another take though

A certain sloppyness creeps in soon enough at these superfast tempi, even with the likes of Tal.

Regards,

DB

Good stuff, that's very fast bebop playing, Dick.