John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

[MarkRhodes]

you see, liberal arts, science, business, economic, and other courses are required to get an IT degree from a solid program.

This doesn't make it an information technology an intellectually rich subject.

But please, give up on me already. I've got a fine collection of essays edited by philosopher Edward Feser on hand, 'Aristotle on Method and Metaphysics," and I would much rather read that than continue a conversation about why the audience for jazz is small and the record industry is evil.

[MarkRhodes]

I know where you're coming from Mark...we both feel the same way. All of us jazz cats are/were the polar opposite of that stuff. I was making light of the irrelevance of disco, which, hopefully, modern country music, rap, death metal etc...will all run their course and end up in their rightful place just like disco. Only the good stuff stands the test of time.

The irony is, disco HAS stood the test of time. It is still played. Probably more now than 20 years ago. It is "classic" now.
The reason I knew about that documentary is that my younger brother watched it and recommended it to me. He hated disco like I did 'way back when. He loved rock, despised soft rock (-which for all the hatred it inspired then has also stood the test of time) and got into punk when it came along. But he has several disco records now and enjoys the no-nonsense, to-hell-with-art-let's-have-a-good-time ethos of it. I never saw that coming! When he called me tell me about this movie I kept expecting him to bust out laughing at the ruse, but no, he's a disco fan. There are millions of other people like him. It's nor their favorite music but it suits a mood they experience and that's that.

I think one of the hard lessons of life is that sometimes bad stuff stands the test of time and good stuff fades. None of it is as simple and clear-cut as we might like!

[cosmic gumbo]

Some say jazz came from the Devil. Maybe it's good that it isn't popular.

[Eric Rowland]

The irony is, disco HAS stood the test of time. It is still played. Probably more now than 20 years ago. It is "classic" now.
The reason I knew about that documentary is that my younger brother watched it and recommended it to me. He hated disco like I did 'way back when. He loved rock, despised soft rock (-which for all the hatred it inspired then has also stood the test of time) and got into punk when it came along. But he has several disco records now and enjoys the no-nonsense, to-hell-with-art-let's-have-a-good-time ethos of it. I never saw that coming! When he called me tell me about this movie I kept expecting him to bust out laughing at the ruse, but no, he's a disco fan. There are millions of other people like him. It's nor their favorite music but it suits a mood they experience and that's that.

I think one of the hard lessons of life is that sometimes bad stuff stands the test of time and good stuff fades. None of it is as simple and clear-cut as we might like!

Many people in their 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's still listen to the same music they were listening to in high school. The feelings from those days are very important to them. This fleeting fulfillment may last a generation. Hopefully, over a greater period of time, really quality music will be remembered and enjoyed by those who follow us. Unfortunately, there are those who will come up with something even more ghastly in order to make gobs of cash.

[Doctor Jeff]

I kept wondering if he was going to pull off that bandaid with his teeth...

Sorry, obscure video reference there...

Great interview from one of the lions of modern music. My kids were fortunate enough to go to a public school in La Crosse, WI, that valued music education highly. Three of my kids were involved in show choir and Wind Ensemble, and it was heartening to me to see more parents and boosters at these concerts than football games. These music groups were among the best in the Midwest.

Much more is gained from high-level music than just performance skills--you learn discipline and teamwork, as well as critical intellectual skills. I credit music with giving my kids the extra drive to succeed (though only one of them so far plays music publicly and semi-professionally).

Anyway, I can't disagree that appreciation for jazz (and classical) music is important to our society and begins with the culture we surround our young people with. There are too many shallow influences out there competing for the national attention span. I'm cognizant of all the marketplace arguments out there, but to support the musical arts to a decent degree in schools and our communities would take a fraction of the money we devote to pro and college football and basketball, our various unnecessary military endeavors, reality TV shows, and even food for our pets.

I think as a society we have to decide who is more important, Coltrane and Ellington and Ella or Kim K and Britney.

[fumblefingers]

This doesn't make it an information technology an intellectually rich subject.

But please, give up on me already. I've got a fine collection of essays edited by philosopher Edward Feser on hand, 'Aristotle on Method and Metaphysics," and I would much rather read that than continue a conversation about why the audience for jazz is small and the record industry is evil.

I understand, and I also think that it depends on how one defines intellectual. I had an English professor who clearly believed that "being an intellectual" was a function of how well one could quote:

the Bible
Shakespeare
Famous literature
Philosophers and political leaders

at wittingly opportune times.

Oh brother.


Regarding IT education, keep in mind that it involves among many other things - (1) the art of Design, and (2) making convincing business cases out of unique proposals that take an individual point of view. Both must be backed up by research, theory and science, and critical thinking. If you can't hack it, you don't earn an "A".

I can tell you that there have been many times in training when I wished for more theory, and in education when I wished for more straightforward paths to "the right answer", as one finds in training.

Furthermore, I think that you back yourself into something of a corner when you issue warnings related to college debt, while simultaneously criticizing the pragmatic pursuit of a field of study that has enormous value to life, society, and industry.

[MarkRhodes]

i helped run a large disco in the heyday.

my estimation after all this time? garbage all the way around.

I never ran one, or even entered one, and my view is the same.

[Broyale]

will all run their course and end up in their rightful place just like disco.

You mean, like winning Grammys and filling stadiums?

[MarkRhodes]

Furthermore, I think that you back yourself into something of a corner when you issue warnings related to college debt, while simultaneously criticizing the pragmatic pursuit of a field of study that has enormous value to life, society, and industry.

As you keep mentioning this, I will say all I have to on the subject. I don't object to people working in information technology. I don't object to business, profit, financial success.

I think taking on a lot of college debt in order to get a music degree in hopes of making a splash as a jazz musician is a bad bet.

[fumblefingers]

As you keep mentioning this, I will say all I have to on the subject. I don't object to people working in information technology. I don't object to business, profit, financial success.

I think taking on a lot of college debt in order to get a music degree in hopes of making a splash as a jazz musician is a bad bet.

Agreed, not a good bet.

[Stevebol]

People started to overuse technology in the 80's and it hurt local live music in a big way. It will only continue to get worse. I could see it coming in 85'.
My name is DJSteve and I know everything.
OK, that's a lie. I'm not a DJ.

This is my simplistic boneheaded view of the music business. Personally I think what really hurt was when people stopped using live bass playing. Funk is all about the bass. All this rap and EDM does nothing for me. Give me the funk.

I'm just a lowly dance band musician. It's all I really know.
If this is a discussion about funding for jazz I don't know about those things. I just wanted to give my perspective on the state of live music in general.

[klk]

in reply to fep and mark's queries, about how musicians made their livings at various points in history, the short answer is that we know surprisingly little about most of them, although we know a good deal about many of the highest profiles folks (especially composers).

for europe, the short answer is that what we now think of as the classical canon has always been grounded in institutional patronage-- a particular aristocratic family or monarch, for instance. the church, too, was a prominent patron and employer. later, individual towns and villages would often create local orchestras and some of them had salaried leaders (and sometimes, musicians).

but the social history of music is difficult. most musicians and musicologists aren't rained to do the research in wills, estates, census rolls, court decisions, and so on. and most social and economic historians lack the musical training to integrate social history with the music. and worse, once we step away from the best-documented orchestras or stars, the basic documents often don't exist. that's common for service industries generally-- documents typically get created by a state when there is a need for taxation or other kinds of control-- it's typically easier to do research on agricultural production than on most kinds of entertainment.

that said, there has been a fair bit of work done on jazz especially in mid-century, and it's becoming clear that, at least by the later swing era, a good deal of the foundation was getting built in african-american k-12 teaching where a lot of kids first got whatever music training they would get. there and the churches.

scott deveaux, the birth of bebop, is still probably the best work i've seen that tries to mix a serious musicological account of changes in jazz while also trying to at least keep abreast of the changing social, political and business history. also a remarkable glimpse into the way that the early boppers tried-- and mostly, eventually, failed-- to make avant-garde jazz commercially viable.

[Stevebol]

Here's a guy committed to live local music. Through think and thin he's always there.

LANCE DIAMOND!

[Eric Rowland]

You mean, like winning Grammys and filling stadiums?

Well, it's hard to argue that point when you have Smokey the Bear on the left and Mr. Famous on the right. At least the two in the middle had the decency to cover the keep their alien environmental gear in place. Grammys and filling stadiums is about making people rich not about making good music.

[Stevebol]

These kids are lazy, They don't really want to learn.
I just asked my brother what kind of music his daughters had at their weddings. He said DJs. I said, if they told you live bands would be to expensive they lied. Their generation is too lazy to form affordable wedding combos. Too much work for them. DJs are a big part of their culture.
I wouldn't waste my time trying to teach these lazy kids music but I'm still in favor of funding jazz. It's better than blowing tax dollars on drones.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Teaching ain't easy.

[fep]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

+1

[klk]

People started to overuse technology in the 80's and it hurt local live music in a big way. It will only continue to get worse.

spinning and sampling did for live bands what containerization did for longshoreman.

but similar things have happened to most of the skilled creative professions. art, architecture, music, journalism and a variety of other trades used to be realistic career paths to a middle-class living. now they aren't, at least not in the way that was the case in the '50s. whatever skilled craft couldn't get off-shored or mechanized got downsized.

similar things happened to dressmaking, shoemaking and small farms a generation or two earlier.

[MarkRhodes]

in reply to fep and mark's queries, about how musicians made their livings at various points in history, the short answer is that we know surprisingly little about most of them, although we know a good deal about many of the highest profiles folks (especially composers).

for europe, the short answer is that what we now think of as the classical canon has always been grounded in institutional patronage-- a particular aristocratic family or monarch, for instance. the church, too, was a prominent patron and employer. later, individual towns and villages would often create local orchestras and some of them had salaried leaders (and sometimes, musicians).

Thanks for the rundown. I appreciate that.

[JazzinNY]

Just wanted to comment on one thing way above, that most people supposedly "don't care about improvisation."

It depends on how it's packaged -- jam bands are pretty popular, and back in the day, before I and my friends were into jazz at all, someone would ask about a rock concert "were there any great solos?"

It's interesting to think about what distances the general public from jazz. Some of it is the overindulgent, overly technical soloing that dominates nowadays.

And some is the lack of exposure. When I was growing up, you'd see jazz on the Tonight Show and other TV. Not so nowadays.

I know when I've been to jazz shows in the past few years, the audiences are very appreciative. So, if an average young person was exposed to this, would they enjoy it? And could they resist peer pressure enough to ADMIT they enjoy it?

[Stevebol]

Just wanted to comment on one thing way above, that most people supposedly "don't care about improvisation."

It depends on how it's packaged -- jam bands are pretty popular, and back in the day, before I and my friends were into jazz at all, someone would ask about a rock concert "were there any great solos?"

It's interesting to think about what distances the general public from jazz. Some of it is the overindulgent, overly technical soloing that dominates nowadays.

And some is the lack of exposure. When I was growing up, you'd see jazz on the Tonight Show and other TV. Not so nowadays.

I know when I've been to jazz shows in the past few years, the audiences are very appreciative. So, if an average young person was exposed to this, would they enjoy it? And could they resist peer pressure enough to ADMIT they enjoy it?

AFAIK jam bands still exist. I used to jam at every opportunity starting around 75-76'. Everyone jammed in all neighborhoods. The drug use was insane for some. Mine weren't college jam band's but I know college students did it for a long time. Somehow there's a tradition to them. Funk is a staple with all jam bands. Playing lousy funk is the law. I'm glad funk always stayed underground. Even when funk is live in front of a crowd it's still underground music.
Cameo was the greatest in the 80's. They came from the underground clubs- punk and gay clubs. They knew showing the world their fan base in music videos would turn many people off but they did it right. They kept funk underground. People ask, why are the men in drag in these videos? Because men love the funk. I think most women prefer other grooves to dance to. They seem to like rap and EDM grooves a great deal. That's not my cup of tea. I like the funk.
I played in two jam bands back in the 70's. I wish we'd done some jazz but we didn't. It might be more common with the college jam bands. It's all about improv. People point to the Dead as an inspiration but I never jammed with anyone who was a big Dead fan. That might be a college thing. Either way the concept is always the same. Groove on what you can- blugrass, blues, folk, rock, jazz and as always, the funk.
Improv comes and goes. Punk rock was a big step away from it but their scene allowed all musicians to put their music out there. Los Lobos came from the underground scene as did Cameo. There seems to be more interest in improv these days but bop is not exactly dancable. It's a tough sell to younger people. They want their rap, EDM and DJs.
I say let them have it. I'm not going to say hey, listen to this music instead of that music.
There seems to be a growing trend in saying, listen to jazz instead of rap. I say Charlie Christian was the greatest rapper of all time. He was so bad he didn't even have to say anything. Rap was just a return to a 30's groove. Charlie had little to do with bop. He could play chorus after chorus and mesmerize a crowd. He was the man.
He played dance music so you know how that goes

This is the information age. Is exposure really an issue any more?

[targuit]

When you think about it, the experience of a rock or country music concert is quite different from that of a jazz concert. In the sixties through the ninties I attended plenty of fine rock or country concerts ranging from my first - The Rolling Stones - when I was around thirteen through the Eagles and blues like BB King. But those concerts have a communal vibe that is part of the attraction, I think. People like to boogie their bootie, sway in unison, and sing their favorite songs offkey in the finest karaoke fashion.

The experience of a jazz concert, imo, is communal as well, but with an introspective aspect of appreciation that is not the same as the rock concert experience. So the Newport Jazz Festival, for example, offers the group thing with everyone into the music but with a more individualistic vibe. And even more so when you get to hear one of the great jazz artists up close and personal, as I did one February night seeing George Benson at his jazz peak in 1973 at the Jazz Workshop in Boston from five feet away. For a guitarist aspiring to play jazz it was inspirational and introspective and pretty deep.

But then again, I think musicians hear music a bit differently anyway.

Jay

[Stevebol]

This is jazz 101 to me;

Singing, dancing, swing technigues, bop techniques. Of course fashion. I believe this was called syncopation at one time. Then blues, then swing, then jazz to bop?
Louis Armstrong was right. I'm a mess.

[Stevebol]

When you think about it, the experience of a rock or country music concert is quite different from that of a jazz concert. In the sixties through the ninties I attended plenty of fine rock or country concerts ranging from my first - The Rolling Stones - when I was around thirteen through the Eagles and blues like BB King. But those concerts have a communal vibe that is part of the attraction, I think. People like to boogie their bootie, sway in unison, and sing their favorite songs offkey in the finest karaoke fashion.

The experience of a jazz concert, imo, is communal as well, but with an introspective aspect of appreciation that is not the same as the rock concert experience. So the Newport Jazz Festival, for example, offers the group thing with everyone into the music but with a more individualistic vibe. And even more so when you get to hear one of the great jazz artists up close and personal, as I did one February night seeing George Benson at his jazz peak in 1973 at the Jazz Workshop in Boston from five feet away. For a guitarist aspiring to play jazz it was inspirational and introspective and pretty deep.

But then again, I think musicians hear music a bit differently anyway.

Jay

True. I saw Benson just before Breezin'. Front row or 2nd row. I was very close, I remember that.

[docbop]

And even more so when you get to hear one of the great jazz artists up close and personal, as I did one February night seeing George Benson at his jazz peak in 1973 at the Jazz Workshop in Boston from five feet away. For a guitarist aspiring to play jazz it was inspirational and introspective and pretty deep.

But then again, I think musicians hear music a bit differently anyway.

Jay

That's why my favorite places for music are small clubs and I haven't been to a concert unless working the audio. My two favorites are the Kuumbwa Jazz Cafe in Santa Cruz, CA, and the now gone Jazz Bakery in Los Angeles. Both were clubs focused on the music. Small Kuumbwa would stop serving during the sets and Jazz Bakery the music room did not allow food or drinks in. Small stages with audience right up to the edge of the stage. I love the old Jazz dive type clubs the audience is become part of the energy of the show.

[Stevebol]

^^^
Jazz clubs still exist. The Anchor Bar in Buffalo, NY. Home of the original and best chicken wings in the world.