Herbie Hancock - The Ethics of Jazz Lecture

[ColinO]

Etudes don't fix problems with technique. A good teacher with knowledge of good technique and a student who is diligent about practicing good technique are the real ways to resolve technique problems.

[henryrobinett]

That's true, but in some classical systems most of the typical problems in technique have been identified, and études developed to strengthen them. The path to good technique is more clearly defined. I think the path is less clearly defined in jazz, so developing good technique can be more challenging for both teacher and student.

The problem though is different set of technical issues. For the bass violin, piano, classical guitar, reeds, brass - the technical issues have been worked out over years of diligent study from master musicians and composers. They have a serious lineage and pedagogy over hundreds of years. Jazz guitar uses a different set of technical areas not addressed in any way shape or form by classical music. Jazz guitar is very, very new.

[Jonzo]

That's true too.

[fumblefingers]

Ever hear of a guy named Joe Pass??

How would you characterize his technique? In my book Joe was classically trained at the outset. He certainly did not play that horrendous technique of Pat Metheny which hurts me just to watch him play. That does not negate that he can play. Joe's technique is absolutely in line with the classical approach.

Another guy who is both brilliant on classical as well as jazz guitar is Roland Dyens.

Btw, Henry, sometimes you make it sound like it's brain surgery. No, it's not.

absolutely NOT right about Pass.

[fumblefingers]

I think that is the point. Good technique is good technique. Learning classical guitar will not teach you good technique any better than learning jazz using good technique.

disagree.

it could be easily argued that jazz guitar doesn't even require good technique, although it doesn't hurt. classical most certainly does require it.

[fumblefingers]

It was just to keep the guitar elevated without having to use a strap and I stuck with it.

me too. plus, no strap button on my Citation an Legrand's....

[fumblefingers]

The problem though is different set of technical issues. For the bass violin, piano, classical guitar, reeds, brass - the technical issues have been worked out over years of diligent study from master musicians and composers. They have a serious lineage and pedagogy over hundreds of years. Jazz guitar uses a different set of technical areas not addressed in any way shape or form by classical music. Jazz guitar is very, very new.

yeah and the right hand and string spacing are very different. arpeggios are played differently too, at least for the most part. migrating from Classical to Jazz on piano is a much more transferable process.

[henryrobinett]

disagree.

it could be easily argued that jazz guitar doesn't even require good technique, although it doesn't hurt. classical most certainly does require it.

But it depends on what level you're playing. To aspire to the top tier you most definitely have to have great technique. Same with classical. I know a lot of classical musicians who play in orchestras and ensembles who have terrible technique.

[Jonzo]

Etudes don't fix problems with technique. A good teacher with knowledge of good technique and a student who is diligent about practicing good technique are the real ways to resolve technique problems.

Etudes are tools. Tools do not fix anything by themselves.

[docbop]

But it depends on what level you're playing. To aspire to the top tier you most definitely have to have great technique. Same with classical. I know a lot of classical musicians who play in orchestras and ensembles who have terrible technique.

Classic is such a different world they for most part don't have to improvise so there focus is being able to sightread ANYTHING and playing in tune. Most have good technique because there are teaching materials going back hundreds of years and they grow up on. But like any music if you're getting the notes out sounding good, who cares how you did it.

For classical the sightreading is really tough because it's their responsibility to even read poorly written charts. Sometimes they are reading old copies of scores and they can be funky. Plus knowing if I think I can't make a note, better to drop it. Playing in tune, I remember a session I was hanging at and this poor violin player, she got a note wrong twice. The conductor stopped everything pointed to her and said "Toots quarter tones don't count". The next take she flubbed it again conductor stopped and said "ten minute break while Ms Quarter tone packs up and leaves". She should of just dropped the note especially after getting called out on it.

Jazz have to know how to improvise, know standard repertory, and have good ears. Classical reading, play in tune, and enough technique to play standard repertory.

[henryrobinett]

Classic is such a different world they for most part don't have to improvise so there focus is being able to sightread ANYTHING and playing in tune. Most have good technique because there are teaching materials going back hundreds of years and they grow up on. But like any music if you're getting the notes out sounding good, who cares how you did it.

For classical the sightreading is really tough because it's their responsibility to even read poorly written charts. Sometimes they are reading old copies of scores and they can be funky. Plus knowing if I think I can't make a note, better to drop it. Playing in tune, I remember a session I was hanging at and this poor violin player, she got a note wrong twice. The conductor stopped everything pointed to her and said "Toots quarter tones don't count". The next take she flubbed it again conductor stopped and said "ten minute break while Ms Quarter tone packs up and leaves". She should of just dropped the note especially after getting called out on it.

Jazz have to know how to improvise, know standard repertory, and have good ears. Classical reading, play in tune, and enough technique to play standard repertory.

I've played in several ensembles where we were backed by string orchestras of various levels. Some of these guys you might equate with your average jazz guy who has a jam session gig or gigs around town for little or no money. They are the borderline amateurs. Many have poor technique and are used to sight reading moderately difficult parts. Some leading orchestras are a different matter. But you'd have to compare those with your leading jazz musicians who have great technique as well, and great reading chops, for the most part.

I know what you're saying, but it's very difficult to generalize for the reasons I put forth. Classical music is almost all about technique and reading, which is a category of technique. But so is jazz, at a higher level than your weekend warrior jazz musician.

[henryrobinett]

I will watch this tonight. How cool would it be if Miles were around today to give lectures like this.

Miles would never have given lectures like this.

[henryrobinett]

I finally saw the lecture!! I loved it. Highlights for me started in the introduction. Miles' quote praising Herbie.

I loved watching HH watch himself and listen to the music he prepared in college. Priceless. And Miles making HH's wrong chord right. And of course the stories about his first playing with Miles. And his father's advice when being asked to be unethical. And racism. The whole thing on ethics and jazz. Wonderful. Thank you.

[targuit]

absolutely NOT right about Pass.

On what do you base this opinion, Fumble? Are you classically trained? I am. And while I am not suggesting that Joe secretly played the Chaconne after hours at jazz clubs, I would suggest that his left hand fingering is much closer to classical technique than a Pat Metheny, for example. And while his right hand approach is not strict classical, neither is mine when I play along with Joe. The difference would be very apparent with a comparison of Joe to Wes Montgomery for instance.

Btw, you are entitled to your opinion on Joe's technique. I am not suggesting that Joe studied classical guitar per se, though I recall reading his comments in an interview about working on some classical method book materials. I am suggesting that his technical approach to chords and voice leading was very comparable with the voicings and choices a player versed in classical technique would use. His right hand approach was more idiosyncratic. But then again, we are all unique.

[henryrobinett]

I don't see where Pass was classical at all. He used his thumb and grabbed chords with his fingers. That's about it. He also used a pick.

[docbop]

I don't see where Pass was classical at all. He used his thumb and grabbed chords with his fingers. That's about it. He also used a pick.

Yes. that video I posted the link to Joe talks about mainly learning tunes working through some of the old Nick Lucas and another book. Joe learned tunes and as a kid started playing with older musicians and picking things up. Joe learned with good ear and by doing.

[fumblefingers]

Ever hear of a guy named Joe Pass??

How would you characterize his technique? In my book Joe was classically trained at the outset. He certainly did not play that horrendous technique of Pat Metheny which hurts me just to watch him play. That does not negate that he can play. Joe's technique is absolutely in line with the classical approach.

Another guy who is both brilliant on classical as well as jazz guitar is Roland Dyens.

Btw, Henry, sometimes you make it sound like it's brain surgery. No, it's not.

in your book? Well I have no idea what is in your book, but your statement about Pass is simply incorrect and misleading.

and yes to answer your later post I am classically trained. Playing my Ramirez 1a tonight.

have a good one.

[henryrobinett]

Btw, Henry, sometimes you make it sound like it's brain surgery. No, it's not.

Well Jay, would you say we're roughly on par as jazz players? Maybe you're more experienced a little? A lot? I just don't know. I've never heard you play so I don't know. I'm just trying to understand and characterize this barb you threw since I never said I thought playing jazz was like brain surgery. It's probably not that easy!

[nick1994]

Well Jay, would you say we're roughly on par as jazz players? Maybe you're more experienced a little? A lot? I just don't know. I've never heard you play so I don't know. I'm just trying to understand and characterize this barb you threw since I never said I thought playing jazz was like brain surgery. It's probably not that easy!

I think that playing jazz is actually one of the most underestimated skills. It's probably not as easy as brain surgery, but then again I don't know how hard brain surgery is. At least brain surgeons get acknowledgement in society as professionals, but with jazz musicians, it seems like they are just seen as artists living like bohemians. Jazz musicians are still professionals but don't get the same respect as brain surgeons. Sure, jazz doesn't save lives, but it serves the community none the less.

[targuit]

Henry, I was joking with the "not brain surgery" comment. I have been playing classical guitar since I was around twelve and it is now about fifty years experience playing with a focus on jazz since I was in college. You can do the math. I read music fluently and create detailed Sibelius transcriptions of jazz standards which you have declined, citing the point that you "make your own" as I do. Day job - pediatrician, which is also "not brain surgery".

What I was suggesting is that I don't see this great chasm between classical guitar and jazz. When I listen and play along with Roland Dyens's versions of jazz standards, is it classical guitar or jazz? I assume you have heard Roland, but if not, I will link one of his videos. Perhaps you could comment on whether he is playing jazz or something else. As you know, Dyens is also a composer, so I think we can agree that he can improvise. And I suspect you know that he as a couple of CDs and published sheet music books of his arrangements of jazz standards that sell on GSI and other sites.

Is Gene Bertoncini playing jazz? I think so. Ralph Towner? As for Joe Pass, I'm not saying he was a classical guitarist, but rather that his style of play and voicings are not foreign to classical players, and the notes on sheet music look the same to me. Jazz is not some strange religious cult that only the initiated can comprehend and practice. It is a style of music based upon "improvisation" or more accurately individual interpretation of someone else's musical creation (composer). And it is not uniquely dependent on how you finger the guitar. Rory Hoffman, blind since birth, plays jazz guitar on his lap. Tell me it's not jazz.

Here is the link to Roland's video. He plays here with the low E string tuned to C. Rather nice arrangement, no? My Sibelius arrangement is in Bm to accommodate my vocal range, but I'll see if I can record a video today of this tune and try to get it up on YT. Then maybe you can do the same.

Jay

[fumblefingers]

I think that playing jazz is actually one of the most underestimated skills. It's probably not as easy as brain surgery, but then again I don't know how hard brain surgery is. At least brain surgeons get acknowledgement in society as professionals, but with jazz musicians, it seems like they are just seen as artists living like bohemians. Jazz musicians are still professionals but don't get the same respect as brain surgeons. Sure, jazz doesn't save lives, but it serves the community none the less.

lol. funniest post ever.

[fumblefingers]

Henry, I was joking with the "not brain surgery" comment. I have been playing classical guitar since I was around twelve and it is now about fifty years experience playing with a focus on jazz since I was in college. You can do the math. I read music fluently and create detailed Sibelius transcriptions of jazz standards which you have declined, citing the point that you "make your own" as I do. Day job - pediatrician, which is also "not brain surgery".

What I was suggesting is that I don't see this great chasm between classical guitar and jazz. When I listen and play along with Roland Dyens's versions of jazz standards, is it classical guitar or jazz? I assume you have heard Roland, but if not, I will link one of his videos. Perhaps you could comment on whether he is playing jazz or something else. As you know, Dyens is also a composer, so I think we can agree that he can improvise. And I suspect you know that he as a couple of CDs and published sheet music books of his arrangements of jazz standards that sell on GSI and other sites.

Is Gene Bertoncini playing jazz? I think so. Ralph Towner? As for Joe Pass, I'm not saying he was a classical guitarist, but rather that his style of play and voicings are not foreign to classical players, and the notes on sheet music look the same to me. Jazz is not some strange religious cult that only the initiated can comprehend and practice. It is a style of music based upon "improvisation" or more accurately individual interpretation of someone else's musical creation (composer). And it is not uniquely dependent on how you finger the guitar. Rory Hoffman, blind since birth, plays jazz guitar on his lap. Tell me it's not jazz.

Here is the link to Roland's video. He plays here with the low E string tuned to C. Rather nice arrangement, no? My Sibelius arrangement is in Bm to accommodate my vocal range, but I'll see if I can record a video today of this tune and try to get it up on YT. Then maybe you can do the same.

Jay

thanks for the clip of RD doc. i saw him - front row - a couple of years ago. he plays very, very quietly compared to the typical concert classical guitarist, even the gals. i'm not sure why, but i hope he doesn't teach that approach to his students. he was very entertaining though, no question about that.

i think that you are simply confusing a few concepts about guitars, styles of music, and technique.

to clarify:
jazz music can be played on a classical guitar.

classical music can be played on a jazz (steel string, narrow nut width) guitar.

one can use highly individualized finger style right hand approaches on any guitar

one can use finger style right hand approaches that approximate classical guitar right hand technique - but do not duplicate it - on any guitar

one can fuse jazz and classical music

chords are just chords, although usage/practice is idiomatic.


one more thing:

are you sure that jazz is not a strange religious cult?

[henryrobinett]

Jay - I'm not interested in you doing a transcription of SOMEONE ELSE playing. I'm not interested in you doing ANY transcriptions. I have no doubt you can do that. I'm interested in hearing you improvise over some changes. Even simple changes like Autumn Leaves or Bye Bye Blackbird.

I know you were "joking" about brain surgery, though it was passive aggressive. Hey, I'd love to take you up on your challenge, but I post music all the time. I just posted something yesterday on the Beautiful Love thread. I'm just not interested in videos of other people playing. You! That's what I'm interested in.

The point is I don't know how you can evaluate how hard it is or isn't to play at the level I'm talking about or trying to aspire to. I've practiced many hours a day for most of the 40 some odd years I've been doing it. I've never really been a slacker when it comes to playing guitar. And yes, for all that work I SHOULD be better. But I'm only as good as I am. For ME the goal is JAZZ and that means improvisation, not doing jazz sounding transcriptions. I'm not putting that down. That's FINE. But we're talking two different things and different skill sets.

[fumblefingers]

Here's a nice version of Nuages by Dyens. Great stuff.

[targuit]

Henry - You confound things a bit. When I transcribe, I create my own transcriptions. I also play the music into Sibelius on keyboards. When I offer a transcription, it is my version of the song. Many individuals on the forum have received transcriptions of jazz tunes that I create. So don't fret. I would not send you a transcription of a slacker like John Coltrane. And for the record, I appreciate your creativity and musicianship. I have listened to your recordings on Soundcloud or whatever that site is. You are a talented player and composer. If I can get a couple of hours of quiet here today, I am recording my version of My Funny Valentine, as solo guitar with a vocal and a second guitar improvising a bit over the basic track. All tracks will be "live" takes in my living room, as I have no editing software, just my Korg D1200 digital recorder, a $69 MXR mic, and my old Eighties vintage Yamaha G 235 classical guitar that I got for $260 in Italy back in the early Eighties. Then you can judge for yourself. And trust me on this, Henry, I can hang at any level you can reach, any day of the week. That is not aggressive - just the facts. I assume that a spontaneous recording will demonstrate not only that I can play jazz guitar, but that I can improvise over Rogers' and Hart's genial composition. If that is not sufficient, than tell me what you require.

I posted that beautiful video clip of Dyen because he is a masterful composer and performer. Classical and jazz. Do you agree?

Jay