Herbie Hancock - The Ethics of Jazz Lecture

[OPherman47]

Love this thread

[nick1994]

Well, I was given a book called slur, ornament and reach development exercises and it illustrated arched fingers, playing up against the frets, playing on finger tips as much as possible, placing the thumb halfway between the neck (none of that Hendrix business where the thumb sticks out), also keeping fingers all close to the fret board. I was told this was a classical approach to left hand technique.

[henryrobinett]

My first guitar teacher was a classical guitarist. He taught me classical pieces, but he also had a huge appreciation for jazz, though he didn't play it. Even then my goal was to be a jazz guitarist. I was 13.

My second guitar teacher was a classically trained flautist, jazz guitarist and was a devotee of Howard Roberts, though he wasn't a great jazz guitarist himself. He taught me a lot of classical repertoire he transcribed for "jazz guitar" to be played with a pick. I learned Paganini, Bach, Rimsky-Korsakov, Menndelssohn, Debussy. All these pieces he worked out with fingering and picking direction. Best thing that ever happened to me. But pima and open string scales just don't make it for jazz. If jazz guitarists could apply this kind of classical transcriptions that would relate, otherwise - TO ME- it's another instrument.

[nick1994]

I was also taught to practice with footstool.

[henryrobinett]

Well, I was given a book called slur, ornament and reach development exercises and it illustrated arched fingers, playing up against the frets, playing on finger tips as much as possible, placing the thumb halfway between the neck (none of that Hendrix business where the thumb sticks out), also keeping fingers all close to the fret board. I was told this was a classical approach to left hand technique.

Could be. I just thought it was good left hand technique. I never thought Hendrix had good left hand technique, in the "proper" way. But I never considered those things classical technique. Could be though. I was fortunate to have had good teachers starting out. But even my next teacher, Warren Nunes, wasn't classically trained but had great left hand technique. I think it's just logical.

[henryrobinett]

I was also taught to practice with footstool.

Yikes. Why?

[nick1994]

It was just to keep the guitar elevated without having to use a strap and I stuck with it.

[henryrobinett]

That's very unusual to see jazz guitar players using a footstool. To me it's awkward - looks awkward and feels awkward.

[targuit]

I thought Bob Burford's version of 'Round Midnight was pretty good. Pure classical technique married to jazz and swing with an almost percussive pianistic articulation of the notes with the right hand. I am more inclined to use slurs and slides for tone and phrasing, but I admire Bob's taste and sensibility.

I think one is confounding some rather superficial issues - use of the footstool, proper posture,.... - with actually playing notes that one hears as jazz. I can play with a pick, as could Joe Pass, but I prefer to play most of the time with my fingers, a rather hybrid technique. A pick is useful for very up tempo tunes and for a certain sound, but is just one method of expressing the music. And I always thought Joe sounded rather good.

BTW, with but a few exceptions, I always found it boring to play Sor's etudes. The Bminor one is perhaps my favorite. I think there are many classically trained jazz guitarists on the scene today, just as there are the Pat Metheny's and other more individualistic players in terms of technique. Isn 't it the end result that really counts? Hell, there is a guy named Rory Hoffman, blind since birth, who plays the guitar on his lap that can swing like the Devil.

Jay

[henryrobinett]

I've never heard of him. I don't know hardly any great, WELL KNOWN jazz guitarists besides Ralph Towner who use classical technique. Adam Rogers plays it well.

[nick1994]

Could be. I just thought it was good left hand technique. I never thought Hendrix had good left hand technique, in the "proper" way. But I never considered those things classical technique. Could be though. I was fortunate to have had good teachers starting out. But even my next teacher, Warren Nunes, wasn't classically trained but had great left hand technique. I think it's just logical.

It probably is just logical, I just happened to learn from a classical book but that doesn't necessarily make it a classical technique. Fair enough

[henryrobinett]

I think there are many classically trained jazz guitarists on the scene today, just as there are the Pat Metheny's and other more individualistic players in terms of technique. Isn 't it the end result that really counts? Hell, there is a guy named Rory Hoffman, blind since birth, who plays the guitar on his lap that can swing like the Devil.

Jay

Yes, absolutely targuit - but the exceptions are not the rule. There are ALWAYS the exceptions. I'm referring to the rule of being classically trained as a guitarist and directly applying that to jazz, like classical pianists can or trumpet players. Technique is technique, right? Well no, not necessarily.

[targuit]

Ever hear of a guy named Joe Pass??

How would you characterize his technique? In my book Joe was classically trained at the outset. He certainly did not play that horrendous technique of Pat Metheny which hurts me just to watch him play. That does not negate that he can play. Joe's technique is absolutely in line with the classical approach.

Another guy who is both brilliant on classical as well as jazz guitar is Roland Dyens.

Btw, Henry, sometimes you make it sound like it's brain surgery. No, it's not.

[henryrobinett]

I don't mean to make it sound like it's brain surgery. But it does require some doing to do it very well.

I don't think Pass played with classical technique. He plucked with four fingers but I never heard a lot of pima fancy stuff from him. I never heard him play any real classical pieces.

[henryrobinett]

And I don't know why you think I make it sound complex. It's not. It's easy. But it requires work. The goal, at least for me, is to play intuitively through a lot of complicated harmonic progressions, and to do so effortlessly, artfully and melodically. It just takes training and FOR ME it's taken years of doing. I feel good about what I can do and I've taught others successfully how to do it. Brain surgery? I don't know. Maybe on second thought. Maybe some brain surgeons have spent as much time studying. Maybe not. But it is not easy to do it well. Nothing is.

[targuit]

All I'm saying is that I agree with Herbie. Classically trained guitarists can handle the transition to jazz just fine. If they have talent and can improvise. Just the knowledge of reading notation fluently and the fret board plus the grounding in functional harmony are advantages. I don't discount the difficulty of playing jazz well on any polyphonic instrument.

Joe's approach to voicings and transitions on guitar is very classical imo. Certainly by comparison to Wes Montgomery for instance. So, Henry, do you play solo jazz guitar or only in group situations? I ask that in relation to your preference apparently for playing with a pick, as I think of players like Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel. Or one of my personal favorites, Kenny Burrell.

Jay

[henryrobinett]

I play solo guitar as well. I just came back from a 12 day cruise where I played almost nothing but solo guitar. I mainly do it with my fingers, like Pass. But it's not classical.

As I said I know very few classical guitarists who have successfully made the transition to jazz guitar. Almost none. And I've known a lot. I've taught a lot. None of my classical students ever have. I can't get them to get the time feel or to improvise.

[nick1994]

I play solo guitar as well. I just came back from a 12 day cruise where I played almost nothing but solo guitar. I mainly do it with my fingers, like Pass. But it's not classical.

As I said I know very few classical guitarists who have successfully made the transition to jazz guitar. Almost none. And I've known a lot. I've taught a lot. None of my classical students ever have. I can't get them to get the time feel or to improvise.

That's strange, a lot of the jazz guitarists that work at my university come from a classical backround and some still perform classical repertoire as well. From what I've seen it's not that uncommon. There are certainly less guys coming from classical backgrounds as opposed to rock or blues but I've seen a couple.

[henryrobinett]

Are these guys REAL jazz guitarists? Are they Burrells, Bobby Brooms, Halls, - are they of that caliber? And OF COURSE if they teach at the university they will have been required to have gone through that curriculum. I'm not saying they don't exist. There are exceptions everywhere.

But can you tell me of the great jazz guitarists who come from a classical background? Hall may have come from a classical background, I don't know. But he doesn't play with a classical technique, which is really what I'm saying. I don't know anyone who plays, other than grabbing chords -- I grab chords with my fingers when I comp most of the time or play solo guitar - but it's not classical -- I don't know anyone who really plays jazz with classical technique other than Ralph Towner or maybe Charlie Byrd. I know there are others. There's someone who posts here who has phenomenal technique soloing with his fingers.

[Jonzo]

I find the comment about the ease of transitioning from classical to jazz interesting (whether true about guitar of not) for what it suggests about the importance of playing by ear, and sight reading. Classical musicians are terrible at the former and great at the latter, yet, apparently, transition relatively easily to jazz.

I don't know if you can make any broad generalizations, though there is plenty of food for thought. It is defiantly not the path Wes took, but his path worked too. My kids came up through the classical path, and have really benefited from their sight reading skills, even though jazz is more about hearing than reading. It is just so efficient to be able to look at lines and dots on paper, and to be able to hear and understand a musical concept. I guess one would have to concede, at least, that learning by ear is not the only way.

I remember getting Guitar Player magazine, and TAB just never cut it for me. So a lot of the information was lost on me. My son will get a Bass Player magazine and play through all of the examples in half an hour. I really envy that ability.

I think sometimes people mistakenly think that unless you learn a tune by ear, you are not using your ears. But once you are off score with a tune, you are trying to reproduce what you hear in your head. You are using your "internal ears".

[Jonzo]

Are these guys REAL jazz guitarists? Are they Burrells, Bobby Brooms, Halls, - are they of that caliber? And OF COURSE if they teach at the university they will have been required to have gone through that curriculum. I'm not saying they don't exist. There are exceptions everywhere.

But can you tell me of the great jazz guitarists who come from a classical background? Hall may have come from a classical background, I don't know. But he doesn't play with a classical technique, which is really what I'm saying. I don't know anyone who plays, other than grabbing chords -- I grab chords with my fingers when I comp most of the time or play solo guitar - but it's not classical -- I don't know anyone who really plays jazz with classical technique other than Ralph Towner or maybe Charlie Byrd. I know there are others. There's someone who posts here who has phenomenal technique soloing with his fingers.

Peter Sprague comes to mind. I don't know if he followed a classical path into jazz, but there is a lot of classical theory and technique in his playing.

[targuit]

I think one should make a distinction between a classical guitarist who has developed his ears and adapted his technique background to playing jazz and improvisation versus a classical guitarist who is trying to "classicalize" (sic) jazz standards. I have classical training, but I don't try to turn Cry Me A River ​or I Fall in Love Too Easily into a John Dowland arrangement. I play more along the lines of Ralph Towner's version of the latter song. So I agree that Ralph Towner, Gene Bertoncini, and the late Oscar Castro-Neves are a few examples that jump to mind.

Funny, but I do occasionally appreciate when a jazz pianist like Keith Jarrett or George Shearing would take a tune's melody and briefly play in an almost classical manner. Keith would often movingly do so with his trio as he explored the tune, and George Shearing was so good at that as well. I call it 'depth'.

Jay

[henryrobinett]

Peter Sprague comes to mind. I don't know if he followed a classical path into jazz, but there is a lot of classical theory and technique in his playing.

Yes, I was going to mention him and then forgot. He's an excellent example.

[ColinO]

Could be. I just thought it was good left hand technique. I never thought Hendrix had good left hand technique, in the "proper" way. But I never considered those things classical technique. Could be though. I was fortunate to have had good teachers starting out. But even my next teacher, Warren Nunes, wasn't classically trained but had great left hand technique. I think it's just logical.

I think that is the point. Good technique is good technique. Learning classical guitar will not teach you good technique any better than learning jazz using good technique.

[Jonzo]

That's true, but in some classical systems most of the typical problems in technique have been identified, and études developed to strengthen them. The path to good technique is more clearly defined. I think the path is less clearly defined in jazz, so developing good technique can be more challenging for both teacher and student.