Jazz Guitarists that 'normal' people like?

[3625]

BTW - if anyone can share video of some current players who can swing like Grant Green or Wes, PLEASE share!

Anything by Ed Cherry

[3625]

It is funny that (like you) I've come to realise that playing a 4/4 medium blues is the most difficult thing you can do...

I hear you. That's something I've been paying particular attention to during the last year - I'm much more comfortable outlining 8ths over a tune like Miss Jones at 200+. Playing a slow to mid-tempo blues requires an entirely different skill set.

[pushkar000]

Django's probably the most famous jazz guitarist of all time.

My wife loves Bill Frisell.

I would invite anyone to a Jim Mullen gig.

This is the kind of quality I would like to cultivate in my own music - not to pander to an audience but to create music that communicates.

I do think that the modern music scene has tended towards atomisation in the audience. Instrumental music is such a niche market it threatens to be primarily about guitarists listening to guitar players, drummers listening to drummers. A lot of the current contemporary jazz guitar stars have kind of been painted into that corner - even a lot of jazz musicians (non guitar) I work with have no idea who Lage Lund is.

I have always been inspired by artists that communicate to a wide public without feeling they have to pander to them... It's a good trick! :-)

I saw an interview of Terrence Blanchard. He speaks about something which he learned from his time with Art Blakey. Art used to tell him never to play above the audience or below the audience. Always play to the audience. I felt like that was something pretty important to keep in mind.

[ooglybong]

Hello 3625, my first post, hope it is a goody for you.

For something post 1959, try Rotem Sivan Trio's Enchanted Sun released at the end of 2013 (and I think a new CD is imminent). Always gets a complimentary comment or question with my friends. Even the wife really likes it.

You ask why do they have that ability.

In my opinion there is a deep respect for each musician, each instrument and each song on this CD. You can almost hear them listening to each other and digging what each other is playing. The tones and songs are beautifully presented and the improvisation is unique to the songs not a blow session that could be copied to any other song.

This Just In by Gilad Hekselman is another recent release that I think is consumable by a non jazzer.

Both CD's for mine go an extra step in the composition of the songs and the playing that results. There is an artistic element, like the great Kind of Blue, from the first note you hear you can sense that there is magic to follow.

Wow. Thanks SO much for the tip on Sivan. Out of curiosity, I checked some samples at Amazon and a few other sources and was pretty blown away with 'Enchanted Sun'. An interesting and, IMO, unique voice on the guitar, but past that, an overall great conversation to be overhearing between the three musicians. Interesting compositions, great dynamics and interplay... yeah they're really listening. His newest album, 'For Emotional Use Only' (gotta love the title!) actually opens with a two-minute bass solo prelude, not only masterfully and expressively played, but wonderfully recorded, too. How unselfish of the album's 'star' artist to share like that!

Anyway, I immediately ordered both albums. Thanks again!

[Engine Swap]

Mebee Charlie Byrd?

[Jazzpunk]

I think this is not actually a choice and this response (which you often hear) is actually a bit defensive. To my ears, the great majority of jazz guitar players in my scene cannot swing in the sense that Charlie Christian or Grant Green did - even the straight-ahead guys. And, of course, I would certainly count myself in this.

It's not our fault. We are educationally disadvantaged, in a sense ;-) Also, the talent pool for jazz musicians was somewhat wider back then....

There are also other ways to swing so to speak, and jazz has latched onto these - Brazilian and Cuban music of course, also West African, North African, Balkan and many other types of world music has fused with jazz over the past few years.

This might seem harsh or even offensive, but that's not the intention. Actually I agree with what a lot of people say here when they say music has changed. Of course! And I don't believe that just because you don't play guitar exactly like Wes you can't address a wide audience.

I really disagree with your assessment. I think you may be confusing your personal preference for how you think a jazz guitarist should swing with the fact that most contemporary players are not interested in simply rehashing the past. Concluding that others have a poor time feel because you don't like how they swing (or don't swing) is way off the mark imo. I highly doubt that Kreisberg or Adam Rogers are sitting at home banging their heads against the wall because they don't sound like Christian or Green.

If you're referring to players who are trying to sound like the year is still 1950 than thats a different subject. The recordings are all there though so I don't know why anyone would have a disadvantage. Put in the work and you'll get the results.

I also don't think sounding like a tribute act from the past is going to revive jazz. If anything it's the contemporary players who are not afraid to embrace new sounds and styles that are keeping jazz even remotely relevant in a popular culture sense.

Mehldau is one of the most successful of the contemporary players. Anyone paying attention to his trio and solo work will note he has traditional sensibilities to burn but also embraces covering non-traditional tunes and taking old standards into new realms.

[christianm77]

I really disagree with your assessment. I think you may be confusing your personal preference for how you think a jazz guitarist should swing with the fact that most contemporary players are not interested in simply rehashing the past. Concluding that others have a poor time feel because you don't like how they swing (or don't swing) is way off the mark imo. I highly doubt that Kreisberg or Adam Rogers are sitting at home banging their heads against the wall because they don't sound like Christian or Green.

If you're referring to players who are trying to sound like the year is still 1950 than thats a different subject. The recordings are all there though so I don't know why anyone would have a disadvantage. Put in the work and you'll get the results.

I also don't think sounding like a tribute act from the past is going to revive jazz. If anything it's the contemporary players who are not afraid to embrace new sounds and styles that are keeping jazz even remotely relevant in a popular culture sense.

Mehldau is one of the most successful of the contemporary players. Anyone paying attention to his trio and solo work will note he has traditional sensibilities to burn but also embraces covering non-traditional tunes and taking old standards into new realms.

First: Good time feel is not necessarily the same as being able to swing. Having good time does not mean you have good feel and vice versa.

As feel is generally learned experientially, and available experience is lacking for many young players, so the perspective shifts to how well you can synchronise to a metronome. Two different things.

But the interpretation of what swings and what doesn't swing is completely subjective, so there's actually little point in debating it.

Second: I very carefully worded my post (hence the edits!). Read it again, and you will see that I am not disagreeing with your statement. You are in fact, agreeing with me.

You mention international class players who have played with the greatest musicians of their generation (especially in the case of Rogers), which is a bit different. Having heard Kreisberg and Adam Rogers perform, it's hard to know whether I would have dug a performance by some dead giant (Wes etc) and obviously a slightly silly question to ask.

I do feel Wes's records *swing* more than theirs, which is certainly not an insult. I find a different quality in that older jazz music. It's more earthy.

That said, I really like Chris Potter's underground (the band I saw Adam with) because it has a bit of that visceral sort of feeling to it using modern feels and grooves. I also really enjoy the Larry Golding trio (a bit more swing, I guess). In my experience so far, it doesn't get much better than that. I think that sort of music I could invite anyone to, which covers the original topic rather nicely.

And I love Brad Meldhau (never seen him live, soon!) It's a beautiful, classical type of modern jazz, to me...

In any case, self flagellation due to not sounding like Charlie Christian is something I am keen to avoid. ;-)

[Jazzpunk]

First: Good time feel is not necessarily the same as being able to swing. Having good time does not mean you have good feel and vice versa.

As feel is generally learned experientially, and available experience is lacking for many young players, so the perspective shifts to how well you can synchronise to a metronome. Two different things.

But the interpretation of what swings and what doesn't swing is completely subjective, so there's actually little point in debating it.

Second: I very carefully worded my post (hence the edits!). Read it again, and you will see that I am not disagreeing with your statement. You are in fact, agreeing with me.

You mention international class players who have played with the greatest musicians of their generation (especially in the case of Rogers), which is a bit different. Having heard Kreisberg and Adam Rogers perform, it's hard to know whether I would have dug a performance by some dead giant (Wes etc) and obviously a slightly silly question to ask.

I do feel Wes's records *swing* more than theirs, which is certainly not an insult. I find a different quality in that older jazz music. It's more earthy.

That said, I really like Chris Potter's underground (the band I saw Adam with) because it has a bit of that visceral sort of feeling to it using modern feels and grooves. I also really enjoy the Larry Golding trio (a bit more swing, I guess). In my experience so far, it doesn't get much better than that. I think that sort of music I could invite anyone to, which covers the original topic rather nicely.

And I love Brad Meldhau (never seen him live, soon!) It's a beautiful, classical type of modern jazz, to me...

In any case, self flagellation due to not sounding like Charlie Christian is something I am keen to avoid. ;-)

Ah, I get your points better now. Nice to know another member here appreciates both the old and the new.

Hope you get to see Mehldau soon! I was fortunate enough to get to see him around L.A. in very intimate venues (20-30 people) years ago before he became an international figure. I never miss a show when he is back in town.

[christianm77]

I suppose if there is a bone of contention it's this.

We seem to agree here that contemporary jazz doesn't really swing like the old stuff (Blue Note etc) and has a different vibe. So, if you forgive the bluntness - does contemporary jazz not swing like Wes because:

a) modern players can swing like Wes but have 'evolved beyond it'
b) modern players realise that while they will never swing like Wes etc, the world has moved on and while we can respect the past we can do something relevant to now.

I am a big fan of b). a) seem a bit obnoxious to me (and I haven't head much evidence TBH).

Music to me is not a linear progression. It doesn't go Eddie Lang>Charlie Christian>Wes Montgomery>Pat Metheny>Kurt Rosenwinkel, and I don't really think anyone here would seriously suggest it. It's just that the progression narrative kind of seeps in and it bugs me.

It also implies that you have to master everything that came before. You can't, of course, and you could go mad trying.

You can take the grand tour, of course, and specialise in one way or another... Obviously I have passed over the more 'old school' practitioners, Russell Malone, Howard Alden etc...

Anyway, rant mode disengaged....

[ecj]

BTW - if anyone can share video of some current players who can swing like Grant Green or Wes, PLEASE share!

How about Russell Malone?

By current do you mean folks who came to prominence after 2000? Not too familiar with that crop. George Benson swings as hard as anyone has ever swung on the guitar. A lot of the guys he inspired like Perry Hughes, Henry Johnson, Bobby Broom, etc. swing hard.

Peter Bernstein swings to my ears, although it's not a hard swing.

[christianm77]

How about Russell Malone?

By current do you mean folks who came to prominence after 2000? Not too familiar with that crop. George Benson swings as hard as anyone has ever swung on the guitar. A lot of the guys he inspired like Perry Hughes, Henry Johnson, Bobby Broom, etc. swing hard.

Peter Bernstein swings to my ears, although it's not a hard swing.

I'm quite into Pat Martino atm. He is really very different to Wes say (especially now) but there is something really mesmerising about his rhythm. A few years back I didn't like it.

I think he is a true jazz guitarist's jazz guitarist, and I really dig it - but I understand why a lot of general music fans complain that his music is metronomic and relentless....

There is the George Benson lineage. I have to confess I've not listened to those players much - I will definitely check them out. Benson of course is one of the most musical people every to walk the earth. I'm not a huge fan of all he does, but he's just so stupidly talented.

But I do mean people after 2000. Everything seems to be in this deep music college cerebral harmony and odd time thing ATM. Is it just the view from my little patch?

[3625]

But I do mean people after 2000. Everything seems to be in this deep music college cerebral harmony and odd time thing ATM. Is it just the view from my little patch?

The stuff I hear the college kids do is to a large degree influenced by Mehldau's and Rosenwinkel's work from the late 90's/early 00's - it was the Mehldau trio that got all the odd-time stuff into the canon, in the context we're referring to. That period of Mehldau with Grenadier & Rossy was IMHO some of his best work, in combination with his solo stuff. Mehldau is a bona fide genius and a genuine innovator. Problem is that his stuff is so hard to copy well, in terms of really being at one with the music and capturing that energy (people might say they're not trying to copy Mehldau and Rosenwinkel, but damn you hear it a lot). Anyone seen that clip from the doco where's he's playing London Blues in a club? Wow.

Easier for a moderately good jazz musician from the 30's to get a vibe happening with an audience from that period, than an otherwise quite decent 26 year old somewhat struggling with attempting to be the next Mehldau/whoever these days. That stuff is hard to pull off in a way that connects with the listener - real master level gear.

I find most of the Mehliana stuff I've heard a bit cluttered for my taste, but points to Mehldau for stretching out and trying something new. Plenty of folks dig it no doubt.

Jazzpunk - funny you mentioned Kreisberg and Rogers, because amongst the contemporary guys, I think they have the best time going. Both those guys have great feel and are right in the pocket.

As guitarists we're lucky to have Julian Lage - he represents a whole new direction to go in, that references the past in a balanced way while being innovative and cutting edge as well. Anything he does is incredible (except the Nels Cline stuff, lol... don't flame me).

[3625]

Found it. Early Mehldau trio: London Blues

******* amazing gear! It's got that vibe of truly great jazz, such as Coltrane, Bird, etc.

[eddy b.]

George Benson, Joe Pass with Ella Fitzgerald, John Pizarelli, basically anyone you can find that sings or plays with a singer, most non musicians need a singer....

[DRS]

It's not the guitarist, it's the songs. You get some guy wailing away on some hard bop workout, and most people will tune out after 3 seconds.

A few guitarists who play "jazz" (as opposed to jazz guitarists who do pop music like Benson) and seem to pick good tunes would be (IMHO)
-Wes Montgomery
-Gabor Szabo
-Charlie Byrd
-Martin Taylor
-Johnny Smith
-Joe Pass
-Peter Bernstein
-Baden Powell

[snoskier63]

if us jazzers are not normal what are we? And are those that listen to classical, country, heavy metal, and other genres asking the same thing regarding guitarsis that play their style of music? Just wondering.

[kris]

if us jazzers are not normal what are we? And are those that listen to classical, country, heavy metal, and other genres asking the same thing regarding guitarsis that play their style of music? Just wondering.

simple quastion: who like jazz ? I think jazz players...