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John McLaughlin is 71.
That is hard to believe. Time flies.
I've noted over the years that there were/are certain incredibly influential jazz musicians that if you were fortunate enough to somehow be associated with them, seemed to lead to fame for those associated.
Most notable of these are:
Louis Armstrong
Charlie Parker
Dizzy
Miles Davis
People will say of someone "He played with Charlie Parker." or "He played with Miles." Their connection with "the Great One" bestows upon them eternal credibility.
McLaughlin is one of these people. He is forever associated with Miles Davis. (Personally, I find Bitches Brew to be unlistenable except as a curiosity.)
However, McLaughlin will not be one of the names added to this list. People are not going to say of someone else, "He played with McLaughlin."
Metheny will probably be added to this list. Kenny G. will not.
The best word I can think of to describe McLaughlin is "virtuoso". He is a virtuoso. He is almost cursed with such supreme technical skill that it overshadows all else.
--> VIRTUOSO. 1: an experimenter or investigator especially in the arts and sciences : savant.
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12-02-2013 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Drumbler
Disagree. I don't believe any guitarist will be added to that list. Exceptions might be Django, Charlie, or Wes. Probably Django or nobody, I'll say nobody.
Connection to Miles? Not any more than Jarrett or Chick or Herbie. JM was held back, playing wise, with Miles.
The Mahavishnu Orchestra is what put him on the map. That was explosive. RTF put Chick on the map. I think they've more than made their mark as leaders. Miles told John to get his own band almost immediately.
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In listening to this version again, I would say that JM had a bit of an off night. The solo was a bit uneven. It happens. it looks like he had a sore finger, and he was clearly not happy at the end during the applause. I think he was struggling a little bit, but monstrously played his ass off nevertheless.
Still the solo:
had lots of motifs
had lots of melodic sequences and antecedent/consequent phrases (call and response)
fast sections were mostly ended before becoming too long, although some went intentionally longer for the sake of building tension and intensity
forget the fast stuff, i would challenge anyone here to weave improvised melodic sequences like he did there.
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Originally Posted by Drumbler
That's a very short list whose most recent member had his biggest success almost 55 years ago. If no-one has made the list since then, I doubt the next addition will be a guitar player. And certainly not Wes - he's been dead 45 year so I think his resume is pretty much complete. If he were going to make the list, I'd say he probably would have already. Same for Django - dead 60 years now.
It really makes me wonder what a guy is supposed to do when it's actually a question up for debate as to whether JM is "good" or not. I don't even know how to respond in a sensible fashion to that.
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Good AND Fast.
Not your common generic bebop you either like or not.
One of the first who could successfully achieve port horn like chops on the axe.
I would say his tone is not up to par with his skills but then again a matter of taste...
Still one of my favorite guitar player.
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I love John Coltrane! Originally Posted by fumblefingers
I have a lot of his CD's.
I do not understand you...
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Oooh always a contentious subject.
McLaughlin, as far as I can determine, was never really a great straight ahead player and this is probably what drew Miles to him. After all, Miles could have had George Benson in his band, but Miles was over bebop vocabulary by this point. Musicians like Chick Corea and Zawinul were interested in going beyond their acoustic jazz roots, and its hard to see George Benson having done this - right instrument, wrong style.
What Miles wanted was a young musician who 'got' Jimi Hendrix, had some strong R'n'B roots and was also a sophisticated enough improvisor to understand how to respond in an ensemble environment. McLaughlin fitted the bill perfectly.
The interesting thing about Johnny Mac as that (from contemporary accounts) he was regarded in 60's london as first and foremost a great feel player - his chops were pretty basic at this point, and this is reflected in his early work with Miles. At some point around the later 60's he started to develop his alternate picking chops, and the rest as they say is history.
From a personal point of view, I really like a lot of the Mahavishnu stuff, but to me McLaughlin's speed playing has always sounded a bit too mechanical for straight jazz.Last edited by christianm77; 12-02-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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JM is an excellent musician and Mahavishnu was a landmark group. A landmark GROUP,....John. I wonder if he didn't get a bit big-headed with the sucess of MO but that can happen to anyone.
I kid John. He's good, no doubt about it.Last edited by Stevebol; 12-02-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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How about this guy Kris??
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Very nice!
I like it.
Jazzingly
Kris
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An anthology "The guitar in jazz" has an interview with Joe Pass. Pass mentions his concern that many rock guitarists rely on effects, with little guitar-playing of melodic interest; he had trouble imagining them playing jazz standards at a semi-professional level.
Pass did not discuss "The Edge".
One exception, perhaps the only one mentioned by Pass, was John McLaughlin.
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There are lots of rock guys I could imagine playing jazz standards at more than a semi-professional level. Actually that's not really true. In fact, there are very few guitar players of any stripe, jazz or otherwise, who can actually make any money at all playing jazz standards, so maybe that's what Joe meant.
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I fail to see why Joe Pass felt the need to express his concern about 'pedal players'. It's not as if those guys threaten him or the musical tradition he stands for? Also I don't think mr. Pass would fare well standing in for the Edge in a U2 concert :-)
Different styles...
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Agreed! Ever hear Alex Skolnik blow jazz lines? Or, bop tunes? The guy is a monster! It's too bad that we lost him as a Heritage endorsing artist. Originally Posted by ColinO
That would probably make for a good TGP type of a thread here on JGF.
"Name the top 5 rock players who would make good jazz guitarists". (and please, no Carlos Santana or Jimi Hendrix!!) lololol
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Skolnik is awesome - no doubt. There are lots of others that, if they wanted to, could play jazz well. Maybe JP was just lamenting the fact that they aren't.
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To those dissing McLaughlin, you need to check up on your history.
The man is possibly the most influential guitarist of the past 30-40 years, until Pat Metheny, and might I add that he was around for a while before Pat, and was a big influence of him. He was also part of many legendary groups that started and/or popularized brand new or very unknown styles.
The fact that he plays fast is just a byproduct of how he learned how to play, just like how Coltrane would play stuff that went on and on and on, he also likes to play fast lines.
I always refer people to this Youtube video of him, where he's playing some really fast stuff, but the stuff that comes out you can tell everything is stuff that he is hearing and has complete intention to play what he does.
He might not be your cup of tea, and he certainly is one of the guys I least listen to. But all the things he has done really deserves some respect towards him.
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Extrapolation is still one of my favorite records.
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May be this is interesting for you:
"Stuttgart Aria" Bireli Lagrene & Jaco Pastorius CD from 1986.One of the last Jaco recordings...I think.
There is a great pianio player/ Keyboards, Synthesizer/from Poland Wladislaw "Adzik" Sendecki.
Old friend from Poland...:-)
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Hello All
I was at the concert in Vienne (Remember Shakti followed by Scofield) and i think he is great in that context. The fast indian inspired frasings with a hint of blues. And his own stuff.
I had the talk with another guitarist yesterday at one of the local jams who recommended the stuff with Defrancesco, because i told him that i don't really hear him as having a great groove or jazz-sound. Ok , Bitches Brew was pure magic.
And i kindof get the same feeling when i hear it now. Defrancesco and Elvin Jones. How much better can it get in terms of groove ? And still his style on this content feels kind of stressed, doesn't it ?
Except from the occasional fast runs of greatness that i still enjoy.
I could imagine Scofield who doesn't have the same fast chops, doing kind of the same kind of thing and completely ruling the feel of it.Last edited by vhollund; 12-05-2013 at 06:36 PM.
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JM and Scof are guitar GIANTS! Originally Posted by vhollund
They recorded a lot of beautifull music ... that's good they are different..:-)
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Quite. And the guitarists who are different are the ones who make history and will be remembered for generations. JM is not a pure jazz guitarist, but is up there with Hendrix and Wes and Django and a few others who have changed the way others play and see their instrument. He's a living legend. If you can afford it, I can recommend the Montreux box set which demonstrates his playing in many different group settings. Only if you are already a fan of course! It's alot of money for a blind purchase! Originally Posted by kris
Phil
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Mental Illness is a b#@(#*! Originally Posted by Gertrude Moser
I remember being in San Francisco a few years ago when a mentally ill man threatened to jump off the Oakland Bay Bridge. They stopped traffic on that bridge for around 11 hours or so.
It sparked a great debate on talk radio about the needs of the many versus the needs of the few.
Some of the frustrated drivers, after several hours of being stuck, started yelling, "Jump!" They were immediately arrested.
(Chris, sorry to drift from the subject of John McLaughlin and take over your thread. I decided to give another chance and listened to the Mahavisnu Orchestra double CD that I bought a year ago and could not find anything I wanted to listen too for long. I guess I am just unable to appreciate that period of John's life's work)
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This is a great concert!
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Thanks for the insight. Since your a fan of JM you would probably like this quote from an interview. It's from a Dallas Observer interview in 2010. I know the quotes about Jeff Beck and Frank Zappa are accurate, but I don't know the interviewers source for the Metheny comment Originally Posted by fumblefingers
"Jeff Beck and Pat Metheny have said you are the world's greatest guitarist. What do you think of such accolades?
Very humbling, since I consider them to be among the world's greatest. When I was a young man, I was definitely ambitious. However, to have had a life in music is such a blessing. I don't think like that anymore. There is no greatest in music; it's not the same as in boxing. In music everybody wins.
What do you think about the late Frank Zappa's criticism of your work as simply "operating a guitar like a machine gun?" Do you think that Zappa was right when he said that the whole trend in the music business was that faster is better?
I think he was just jealous! I toured with Frank, and while I've always enjoyed his recordings, on tour he would take very, very long guitar solos, and he just didn't have what it takes to play long guitar solos. That said, he has every right to his opinions, and in earlier days, I'm sure he had some validity in his criticisms of my playing."
Another interesting interview with Larry Coryell. Go to approx. 3:45
Carlos Santana Montreux 2004:
"There's very few musicians like JM who play deep and fast. Most people who play deep play very slow. But Coltrane, John McLaughlin, Wayne Shorter play deep and fast"
Jeff Beck's comments about McLaughlin for that bizarre comment that McLaughlin was a Jeff Beck wannabee:
"the best guitarist alive".
also quoted elsewhere
"peerless. The best in the business"
Allan Holdsworth:
"I've always liked John McLaughlin's playing, because he always sounded like an individual, a strong individual. That's one of the things I appreciate the most. Pat Metheny, I feel the same way about him. Absolutely incredible, and I kind of thrive on the difference. The thing that makes them different is the exciting thing. I was always a big fan of John McLaughlin, I like everything he does, because there's nobody that sounds like John McLaughlin. I see him as one of those guys whose head sticks out way above everyone."
Pat Metheny" 1981
"McLaughlin to me is the most important, certainly the most influential voice in the last decade on the guitar, without a doubt. In a way, he's been misrepresented by his imitators; so many people have jumped on his bandwagon that we sometimes forget what an amazing contribution he made. He really turned things around; there's hardly a young player around that doesn't play like him. I find that a bit distressing; l try to avoid it, as much as I love his playing. It's almost a cliche, that real fast playing. But the missing element is his incredible soulful feeling. It's more than the notes, more than he's the fastest gun ... it's that he's an incredibly dynamic, strong personality on his instrument"
Miles Davis (from his autobiography) (a real quote unlike the made up quote from the nonexistant "unauthorized biography" earlier in the thread)
"I heard him play with Tony up at Count Basie's and he was a motherf***er, so I asked him to make the date. He told me he had been listening to me for a long time and that he might be nervous going into the studio with one of his idols. So I told him, "Just relax and play like you did up at Count Basie's and everything will be all right." And he did.
Uncited quote from Miles- "the only white guy I know with rhythm"
Chick Corea
"What John McLaughlin did with the electric guitar set the world on its ear. No one ever heard an electric guitar played like that before, and it certainly inspired me. ... John's band, more than my experience with Miles, led me to want to turn the volume up and write music that was more dramatic and made your hair move."
from 2010 grammy acceptance speech
"my collaborator John McLaughlin... who is number one on guitar"
Zakir Hussain (Indian Prodigy Percussionist) "One of the greatest musicians of our time"Last edited by WESTON; 08-29-2014 at 05:10 PM.
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