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I saw Tal in a club in Boston in the early 80s. He had a terrible cold and should have been home in bed but man, did he play! I remember he played multiple choruses on Body and Soul completely in harmonics. It was astounding.
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11-29-2016 08:30 AM
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Hey,
Just been listening to this again and it was a reminder of what astonishing piece of jazz guitar playing this is, and what a landmark it is in jazz guitar.
I was just wondering whether getting to that tempo - must be 330bpm plus (!) - is even close to being acheivable. I know that Tal liked to use alternate picking and used lots of hammer off and pull ons but to be able to execute those ideas and be creative - not just playing patterns - is really something. Even when you slow down the recording it still swings.
As someone in the comments said on the YouTube video - what was even more amazing was that he had a day job!
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I don't think that the tempo is 330, but he's definitely hitting some 32nd notes.
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tempo's above 300, as I recall.
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that take is legendary. I can't even tap quarter notes with one finger at that tempo
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Would like to see some cutting contests...Tal vs Barney vs Joe vs George vs Johnnie Mc on the Cherokee, followed by Giant Steps. First player sets the tempo.
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Let's not forget that Tal didn't come out of there womb being able to do that. Playing with Red Norvo initially kicked his butt and he had to woodshed like crazy to keep up with Red's double time tempos. Some folks are just born with a central nervous system that will allow their practice time to result in incredible speed. I firmly believe that others of us are limited a bit by our genetics in that department but that we all can improve with effort. Only a few are capable of what Tal achieved.
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I'll be that guy.
I think there's maybe tempos the guitar just doesn't work at. This might be one of them...no slight to Tal, mind you...99% of the world's guitar players wouldn't have made it thru the head at this tempo! But it sounds a bit to me like the tempo is playing Tal, if that makes sense...I'm not sure who wouldn't be...
But for contrast, heres a contemporary of Tal, Jimmy Raney, same tune, just a bit slower, but still fast enough to give me the heebie jeebies:
Now, what impresses me most here is that Jimmy clearly has the pedal to the floor, but hes able to pull off some really cool and clear melodic ideas at this tempo. And I'm positive Tal would have killed it at this tempo too...just a small difference...
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The Tal version clocks in at close to 400bpm actually which is staggering. Jimmy Raney is merely strolling along at around 330bpm.
Personally as a guitarist I can’t help but be impressed with the feat even though it feels too fast. But he did it, and there’s not many that could match it.
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Firstly I'd like to say that as fellow players we absolutely must take our collective hat off to what remains an almost super human feat.
However, from a music listener's point of view, I don't feel compelled, enthralled or excited the way I am when listening to others noted for their speed, Django, GB etc. It sounds like he's attempting something on the guitar that is just impossible to sound good at, and the articulation suffers. The "fits and starts phrasing" I'm not too crazy about either, but that was what the original boppers were going for...
The Raney example, to a lesser extent, suffers from the same complaint - for me at least. I think there have been many modern attempts to slay this old warhorse and I often come across examples from players like Andreas Oberg that do sound compelling.
Heck, even this guy who posted this on our very own forum a few years back to very little response:
Practicing phrasing at home - Donna Lee, Cherokee
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I don't know how reliable my finger tapping on metrogenius is, but I got Tal about 330+ and Raney somewhere just shy of 300, 290-something I'm getting.
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I think my tapping is not reliable...I tried again, and tapped half notes, and I'm getting about 360 for Tal and 320 for Raney.
I suppose it really doesn't matter. It's FREAKING FAST. And they hang. Well.
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Here you go. The problem with Transcribe is you need to show each beat. If you just put the measures in it gives you a number that's a quarter of the speed. Transcribe says 383.
The other insane thing is it SPEEDS UP. They're closer to 370 at the beginning and closer to 400 by the end!!
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I know, figured everyone could multiply by 4. Way too much clicking for my liking...I only did one chorus so 393 isn't to far out...amazingly his lines still sound great at 1/2 speed...
Originally Posted by setemupjoe
Here you go. The problem with Transcribe is you need to show each beat. If you just put the measures in it gives you a number that's a quarter of the speed. Transcribe says 383.
The other insane thing is it SPEEDS UP. They're closer to 370 at the beginning and closer to 400 by the end!!
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As a guitarist, I bow to the waist at Tal's technical ability, although there is a certain fuzziness to his articulation at high speeds that Raney doesn't seem to have. But as a listener - meh. I would rather hear great melody playing at a slower tempo than this barn burning stuff. I prefer Tal's recording of Gibson Boy to this speed demon version of Cherokee.
Here's what Wes Montgomery said in his 1961 interview with Ralph Gleason:
"... Tal Farlow strikes me as different altogether. He doesn't have as much feeling as Barney Kessel to me, but he's got more drive in his playing, and his technique along with that drive is pretty exciting. He makes it exciting. I think he's got a better conception of modern chords than the average guitar player.
A lot of guitar players can play modern chords, they can take a solo of modern chords; but they're liable to leave it within the solo range that they're in. They're liable to get away from it and then come back to it, get away from it and come back to it. Tal Farlow usually stays right on it.
Jimmy Raney is just the opposite from Tal Farlow. They seem like they have the same ideas in mind, the same changes, the same runs, the same kind of feeling. But Jimmy Raney is so smooth. He does it without a mistake, like some cats play piano they couldn't make a mistake if they wanted to. That's the way Jimmy Raney is. He gives it a real soft touch, but the ideas are just like Tal Farlow's to me."
https://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2017/04/wes-montgomery-1961-ralph-j-gleason.html
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interesting wes mo quote! I find Tal's playing has a tremendous amount of "heart." but obviously that's as subjective as it gets. I like Tal a little more then raney because it just seems like he's always right at his limit, which makes it exciting.
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Interesting comments here! I definitely wasn’t trying to get into an argument about who’s more musical than the other! Tal has his style, Jimmy Randy has his and I’ll happily listen to, draw inspiration from and steal ideas from either. I guess what I was just trying to understand was the level of technical proficiency it would take to get to that level of speed of execution and thought. Although Tal’s solo does show him at the very limits of his ability, he is still saying something, and there’s still a melodic flow even though it’s not 100 percent consistent all the way through.
I’m trying to get closer to uptempo playing myself but I feel like I’m stuck in the slower lane somewhat and would like that aspect of my playing together. I think an earlier comment said that the guitar’s limitations do prohibit playing at super fast tempos.
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Yes close to 400! Very impressive phrasing at this tempo. Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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I find it a huge difference whether the tempo is around 320 (that's what i tapped for the Raney version) or close to 400 as the Tal version. I don't think anyone else ever could play as musical in the 400 bpm range nailing a basic eight note feel as Tal does here.
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Originally Posted by AndyV
I was going to say something similar. While I certainly appreciate the technical ability required to pull this off, does anyone (other than fellow musicians in awe) actually like listening to this tune called at 330+? Its a chance to flex chops for sure, and I'm certainly not close to able at 330 bpm, but its not really enjoyable musically to me.
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I always think of peter bernstein when i hear tunes like that, how he lacks the speed, but somehow manages to play memorable solos at high speeds. An art in itself!
And then you have someone like Benson or Rodney Jones who can shred though anything!
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Not sure if these will be legible?
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It is quite often that GB on live recordings shreds a bit mechanically.... it least I hear it like that. Originally Posted by Alter
I always think of peter bernstein when i hear tunes like that, how he lacks the speed, but somehow manages to play memorable solos at high speeds. An art in itself!
And then you have someone like Benson or Rodney Jones who can shred though anything!
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I think what shows a great player is that we can hear his unique nature, character, set of mind in his playing. What kind of person he is.
It is not necessary that we correspond with any person 100% but we always respect and admire outstanding individuality.
Tal is definitely from the other musical land than I am but he is so flawlessly and authentically unique, you can't but admire it.Last edited by Jonah; 12-07-2020 at 03:39 AM.
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