Tal Farlow

**Greentone** · 07-22-2015, 05:51 PM

The guys with the biggest hands I have ever seen in guitar playing were Tal Farlow and Jimi Hendrix. Both guys had tremendously large hands. Both guys used the thumb more or less continuously. Heck, it was just hanging over the fretboard getting in the way, otherwise. If they put their thumbs behind the neck, as is "correct" it would displace their hands around the neck awkwardly--because of the roughly extra joint's-worth of thumb that each guy had back there. Consequently, big handed guys sort of need to play with a thumb technique.

Wes Montgomery had large hands, too. I can't recall, offhand, if he brought the thumb around.

**vintagelove** · 07-22-2015, 05:56 PM

Music comes from the brain, not the fingers. They are just a means to an end.

**Greentone** · 07-22-2015, 06:12 PM

I'm going to correct myself now. A lot is going to matter how you hold the guitar. If you hold the guitar low and level (i.e., like Hendrix) it is going to encourage a left-hand grip that rests the neck in the bend of the second joint of the fingers. Hendrix' fingers were so long that he still had enough finger length to make all of the chord shapes. Plus, he had the thumb over the top to assist.

If you hold the guitar at something like a 30-45-degree angle (headstock up)--not very "rock and roll'--this is what I do, then it encourages a much more thumb behind the neck, classical left-hand technique.

As I recall, Tal played with the neck level. Joe Pass played with the neck up. Jim Hall and Herb Ellis were in between. Wes was level, like Tal. George Benson, I believe, plays more or less level. He gets some thumb in there, right?

**Greentone** · 07-22-2015, 06:14 PM

FWIW, the smallest hands I _ever_ saw in the business were Danny Gatton's. VERY short fingers. Yet, he could play virtually anything with no apparent effort on his 25-1/2" scale guitar. I don't think hands are the issue. Heart plays a big role.

**henryrobinett** · 07-22-2015, 06:19 PM

I never really got Farlow.

**Greentone** · 07-22-2015, 06:30 PM

Getting Tal Farlow? Hmm? Listen to this cut with Artie Shaw and the Grammercy Five:

Tal sounds very much out of the Charlie Christian school, here. Within six months, however, he was headlining his own quartet. He expanded into pretty hard bop and moved right with the 50s. He was the top of the pyramid, at that point, because his technique was simply scary. However, he hated the road and he hated the business...so he dropped out for years. He only played venues near the Jersey Shore, so he was out of the limelight until the 70s.

He was a great guitarist and musician.

**henryrobinett** · 07-22-2015, 07:29 PM

I've heard a fair amount of Tal. My cousin played with him and Red Norvo. Plus I had a few early records. I never really got him. I know a lot of guitarists loved him. Not that he wasn't a great guitarist. I just never got it.

**fumblefingers** · 07-22-2015, 09:02 PM

same here, gotta say. i had already been listening to Joe Pass quite a bit by the time I first heard Tal. My reaction was, "why listen to this guy, what's the big deal? He sounds like a sloppy version of Joe Pass. I realize that's critical, but it is what it is. when i wanted to hear a player in that style i had Pass recordings and plenty of 'em. and i could go see him, he didn't retire.

we keep hearing that Tal was a tremendous player who could play for hours without looking at the guitar fret board, and sigh... had big hands. i have no doubt about the first part but tire of hearing about that last part. i have fairly big hands too, and its no big deal.

**henryrobinett** · 07-22-2015, 09:12 PM

I have big hands too. It's funny that that's some kind of criteria.

BTW I her Farlow before I ever heard Pass. I had some Tal recordings in the late 60s -- well they were my uncles, but since he found out I wanted to play guitar he played me Tal.

**setemupjoe** · 07-22-2015, 09:32 PM

Tal's later recordings are hard for me to listen to because his technique got too sloppy but his earlier stuff is gold. He was known for his blistering speed and seamless bebop lines. I get that he's not everyone's cup of tea but he was definitely a major player back in the day. Check out Meteor or Stella by Starlight.

**mrcee** · 07-22-2015, 09:40 PM

I like Tal Farlow just fine but I've known some good guitar players that didn't. Sort of like I knew some real hip older cats that didn't dig Ron Carter. I'm a Richard Davis fan myself but I thought Carter was alright. I saw TF in Vegas in around 1973 with Red Norvo and a drummer. It was at the Hilton I think at around 2 AM in a small lounge. There were only about 5 other there people besides the employees. You could see they were at the end of a long day. They were wearing tuxes but their shirt collars were open and bow ties were loose. I knew who they were and watched the whole set. They took "laying out" to a new level. I'd been playing for a while and my ears were not as developed as they are today but I was fascinated by how little they were playing. Way beyond even noodling. Very minimal with no obvious structure. About as close to silence as you could get. But it sounded great. After about 20 mins. into it Tal, who must have known I was watching him closely and wondering what was going on, shot me this super hard look telling me "Lookit Kid, don't you go sayin' Nothin'!"

**henryrobinett** · 07-22-2015, 09:58 PM

Even his early recordings -- and this might be it. I had a teacher who taught me straight arm picking. No movement in the wrist. I got really good at it because j worked hard at it. He was a very respected teacher in the area. Legendary. Good friend of Howard Roberts. He said I did that technique better than any student he ever had. He said I was his best student. Maybe it was bs but he had photos of me on his wall of an article showing me playing in the pit orchestra for my high school playing some musical. Anyway that technique ruined me. I recognized the same rough sound in Farlows playing. And I worked hard to get rid of it. I hate his picking because I recognize it. Stupid problem of mine.

**setemupjoe** · 07-22-2015, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Even his early recordings -- and this might be it. I had a teacher who taught me straight arm picking. No movement in the wrist. I got really good at it because j worked hard at it. He was a very respected teacher in the area. Legendary. Good friend of Howard Roberts. He said I did that technique better than any student he ever had. He said I was his best student. Maybe it was bs but he had photos of me on his wall of an article showing me playing in the pit orchestra for my high school playing some musical. Anyway that technique ruined me. I recognized the same rough sound in Farlows playing. And I worked hard to get rid of it. I hate his picking because I recognize it. Stupid problem of mine.

Yeah I did the same style for years when I first got started. Locking the arm. After about ten years I dumped it completely and don't regret it. It took a lot of practice to keep the technique up and I found it hard to keep a good pocket. I'd rush all the time. When I changed my right hand technique, my pocket immediately got better.

**wintermoon** · 07-22-2015, 10:39 PM

I agree w/setemupjoe

I saw Tal several times from the late 70's to the late 80's.
He just didn't play as well @ that point, maybe because he just wasn't playing as much as he used to in the 50s.
Once he signed w/Concord, I bought the records, but his great recordings are the Norvo trios and the Verve lps.

he was absolutely flyin' in the 50s.

but, ymmv

**feral guitar** · 07-22-2015, 11:22 PM

love Tal but he sounded a bit rough later on (no disrespect intended, he still sounded pretty good).
He used (and signed) my Polytone 104 when he came to town circa 1995.
As he was coming off stage I introduced myself to him
(there was a middle man who took my amp to him earlier)
and I asked what he was doing or something and he said 'I am trying to find a sandwich.' ha

slightly OT but the jazz guitar player who aged the best IMHO (sounded the best when they were older) may have been Jimmy Raney.
His 80's records are pretty great.
Even greater when you learn that he had a severe hearing problem by that time.

**Jonah** · 07-23-2015, 03:08 AM

I did not get him first.. I never really became a fan...

but later when listen to him after few years I got kind of his spirit...

the pleasure of his playing is more in rational choices... he is like trying this or that idea at very high speed...
I'd say heis playing has a charachter of 'demonstration of these choices' (not in negative sence).. he himself seems to be looking at it a bit from outside

I think he could be a person interested in engeneering, machinery construction for example...

I noticed that often when he played slow songs it sometimes sounds as if he he has too much space...

I can appreciate it but myself I am more into more emotionally involved playing

**jkhview** · 07-26-2015, 11:20 PM

I felt almost same way with some people about his playing sort of sloppy..

later I came his music's big fan.

I guess the reason why we feel that way is that the tone of jazz guitar has changed a lot in history.

Maybe the reason of change can be development of technology or musicians playing skill got better.. you know it was

relatively short time that jazz guitar players started playing solo than other instruments.

**vinnyv1k** · 08-05-2015, 08:03 PM

People that don't understand bebop will never appreciate Tal Farlow. I also was lightning fast in my 30's & 40's. Now in my 60's I am getting sloppy too. Tal Farlow is a huge hero of mine . Remember when you point a finger at someone, 3 more are pointing back at you. Nothing worse than than being disrespectful to the deceased. I would love to see you guys thumbing your nose at Tal step back into the 1950's and sit in with Tal and attempt to blow him out of the water. Age and time takes no prisoners. Even George Benson plays sloppy now.

**henryrobinett** · 08-05-2015, 09:06 PM

No disrespect intended towards the great Tal. I was merely saying I never got him. I play bop. And I'll be 60 next year. I get it. I was just never a fan. But I respect the hell out of him.

**vinnyv1k** · 08-05-2015, 09:31 PM

Sorry I get a little defensive when it comes to Tal. Loved him. A lot of people thought Barney Kessel was a sloppy guitarist too. Even Wes said Barney was sloppy. I think it makes the music more humanistic. Players like Pat Martino who always play perfect sound too mechanical to me at times. Even Joe Pass said he never made a album without a ton of mistakes on it. He used to joke that guys copied his mistakes. Tal was horribly shy and suffered from crippling stage fright. I do believe that was one of his main reasons for leaving the business in 1958.

**wintermoon** · 08-05-2015, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Sorry I get a little defensive when it comes to Tal. Loved him. A lot of people thought Barney Kessel was a sloppy guitarist too. Even Wes said Barney was sloppy. I think it makes the music more humanistic. Players like Pat Martino who always play perfect sound too mechanical to me at times. Even Joe Pass said he never made a album without a ton of mistakes on it. He used to joke that guys copied his mistakes. Tal was horribly shy and suffered from crippling stage fright. I do believe that was one of his main reasons for leaving the business in 1958.

I never heard/read him say that about Kessel, I think you mixed them up.
here's part of the Wes interview done by Ralph Gleason.

If you had to name a half dozen of your favorite guitarists, who would they be?

Barney Kessel is one. He's got a lot of feeling, he's got a good conception of chords in a jazz manner. And he's trying to play a little flamenco. He's trying to do a lot of things, not just standing still at one particular level. He's trying to get away from the guitar phrase, to get into the horn phrase. Tal Farlow strikes me as a different cat altogether. To rime, he doesn't have as much feeling as Barney Kessel, but he's got mare drive in his playing, and his technique along with his drive is pretty exciting. And he's got a better conception of modern chords than the average guitar player. Sometimes he gets kind of sloppy like a lot of guitar players, that's why a lot of cats have put him down. But I guess nobody has it all, but he's got a lot of drive, though, and he's so fast. Now, Jimmy Raney is just the opposite of Tal Farlow. It seems like they have the same ideas, the same changes, the same type runs, the same kind of feeling, but Jimmy Raney is so smooth he does it without a mistake, a real soft touch, it's the touch he's got. Django Reinhardt, naturally, he's in a different thing altogether. To me, a lot of guitar players don't go to a particular place, they just sit down and play a whole lot of guitar, and Reinhardt is one of those kind of cats. And I think Charlie Byrd is also a new cat on the scene that is trying to make the switch, trying to get into both bags at the same time, and he's got a lot of recognition from it, but it's a hard thing to do. I think that's why he came in like he did, because of a little flamenco and jazz vein along with unamplified guitar.

**henryrobinett** · 08-05-2015, 10:19 PM

Yeah, we all get defensive about our heroes. We gotta have our heroes. My cousin played in a trio with Tal and Red Norvo. I have total respect for the man. And what a GREAT NAME!!

**Patrick2** · 08-05-2015, 11:34 PM

I gotta laugh at those who spend an inordinate amount of time critiquing a jazz guitar player's tone, technique, how he/she holds the guitar, whether on not their shoes are shined, if there's a booger hanging out of their nostrals. Tal . . . sloppy??? Who cares??? Do you hear the music he's playing??? There were times when Wes' tone was horrid. Who cares??? Do you hear the music the music he's playing??? There were times when Sinatra wasn't in good voice. Who cares?? Do you hear the way he's delivering and performing the song??

Tal's been less than technically perfect forever. Who cares?? He made his guitar a musical voice through which he sang wonderful melodic lines. For me, that's all that counts.

**Marty Grass** · 08-06-2015, 11:48 AM

One finer point I noticed comparing Tal and Joe is that Tal seemed to be enjoying himself more. At least he smiled a lot. Joe seemed more serious and sophisticated. That's my perception anyway.

There was a time Joe was an addict. I suppose he then didn't look as sophisticated.

Both are amazing. Tal seems more empiric and Joe, more theory grounded.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

same here, gotta say. i had already been listening to Joe Pass quite a bit by the time I first heard Tal. My reaction was, "why listen to this guy, what's the big deal? He sounds like a sloppy version of Joe Pass. I realize that's critical, but it is what it is. when i wanted to hear a player in that style i had Pass recordings and plenty of 'em. and i could go see him, he didn't retire.

we keep hearing that Tal was a tremendous player who could play for hours without looking at the guitar fret board, and sigh... had big hands. i have no doubt about the first part but tire of hearing about that last part. i have fairly big hands too, and its no big deal.

**jameslovestal** · 09-16-2015, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by tucson matt

love Tal but he sounded a bit rough later on (no disrespect intended, he still sounded pretty good).
He used (and signed) my Polytone 104 when he came to town circa 1995.
As he was coming off stage I introduced myself to him
(there was a middle man who took my amp to him earlier)
and I asked what he was doing or something and he said 'I am trying to find a sandwich.' ha

slightly OT but the jazz guitar player who aged the best IMHO (sounded the best when they were older) may have been Jimmy Raney.
His 80's records are pretty great.
Even greater when you learn that he had a severe hearing problem by that time.

I agree with you about Jimmy Raney; I like his 80s Criss Cross records more then his 50s work. The Master and Live in Tokyo are great recordings. As for Tal; his 50s records with Eddie Costa are great and really swing. While he is playing fast it is very clean and one can hear each of the notes.

I also saw Tal live about 8 times. Ok, he wasn't the same as he was in the 50s but it didn't matter to me. Sadly never had a chance to see Jimmy.