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Hey Metheny fans,
Ever wondered how those metheny solos on Secret Story sound so perfect? how every phrase is so clean and musical?
Well, they are perfectly edited. I those days Metheny would edit the solos for weeks after the rest of the record was don't using a clever editing technique called comping tracks. this is how is works:
Record 10 solos over the solo section. cut out the parts and phrases you like from all solos you like and dump them into a new track. play another take or two to connect some ideas you have comp track 1
record 10 more solos and do the same think you have comp track 2
repeat until you have a bouncy of comp tracks and then...
comp the comp tracks! yes... take all those good solos that consist of phrases you like and make a solo that is the best phrases of all the best comp tracks one after the other.
Cheers,
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09-18-2013 05:16 PM
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I hope nobody is surprised by this. It's how records are made, by everyone from the Boston Symphony
to Taylor swift. It's a business, after all, and CDs, existing for an eternity as they do, need to be as good as they can be.
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As long as the artist can recreate the same level of improvisation live, I don't see a problem with overdubs or comping takes in the studio.
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I'm not surprised by this, and I'm not sure why anyone's heart would be broken by him trying to create the best possible solo. Thousands of rock guitarists have been trying to do this for decades, and they've still yet to come up with anything as good as his solo on Facing West, IMO.
I will say, though, that I've seen Metheny play live enough to know that he is more than capable of playing something that beautiful through improvisation. During one of my more enthusiastic periods of hero-worship I followed the PMG for three consecutive tour dates and got to see the show three nights in a row. The solos were pretty different every night. I got to hear where they screwed up, and how the music evolved. It's definitely not improvised in the way that small group jazz can be, but he's not playing written out solos.
Some of the best things I've ever heard him play have come from him working as a side-man with other groups, as well. He took a solo at Ravinia near Chicago on his Roland synth guitar with Gary Burton's group that was, I think, the best solo I've ever heard. I also really enjoyed his live dates with Charlie Haden and Jim Hall.
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That's kind of how it's done these days. Even Michael Brecker did it this way. He just wanted to construct perfect solos. And he's as close to perfect player as there was. I've known this all along. No heart broken here.
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We were doing stuff like that when I was a recording engineer back in the 70's and fill all the open tracks, then figure out what measures from what tracks. If another spare track we'd bounce to it, if not we'd go crazy during the mix punching tracks in and out. Worse yet was working with Steely Dan Becker and Fagen believe every inch of tape should be used for something, so a guitar solo track might have percussion in area before and after the solo. They fill everything some mixing was an insanity of button pushing and changing EQ's.
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I don't think it used to be that way. Older albums will release take 1, take 2, etc. of each track.
I prefer live albums. I guess I like hearing mistakes and recoveries.
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Already knew it, and my heart wasn't broken. I might be a little weirded out by that kind of heavy editing on his more jazz oriented trio albums, but the PMG stuff, soundtracks, etc are basically pop music to me (which I'm not saying with a negative connotation...I love that stuff) where editing, overdubbing, etc are the norm. If the technology exists for him to make an album that fits his vision as closely as possible, I don't have a problem with it. I wouldn't be heartbroken if somebody told me Stravinsky used an eraser from time to time or Stevie Wonder punched in vocals.
Now, if he couldn't play his own stuff convincingly live, then it would be concerning, but that's obviously not the case. Next you're gonna tell us that he wasn't simultaneously comping and soloing on Unity Village
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In gypsy jazz, players some times play Djangos solos note by note.
The notion of whether something is improvised or not is kind of the emperors new clothes. It's just a mental construct, the notes are what really matters.
Hypothetical scenario:
I could go to a concert and have a great time listening to the solos with the belief that everything is improvised. Then later someone could tell me the players played memorized solos. I still had a great time then and there. It's only later that this new information is supposed to make me feel that the concert experience was any less valuable than what I felt at that particular moment.
A lot of jazz IS memorized anyway. Players gravitate towards certain strings of phrases for certain passages in songs that they play again and again. They have a staple vocabulary.
To me, what really matters is hearing someone who plays with great time, articulation and conviction like Benson, Martino, Bireli etc...
Heck, a lot of students get upset when they're told to learn vocabulary because it shatters their notion of jazz being some ultra-personal expression where everybody has a one of a kind style.
It's still personal, and there's still a lot you can do, but there are certain parameters that have to be there in order for it to live up to certain criteria. Then we can discuss how much "freedom" there is within these parameters in the end.
One can discuss forever about how improvised jazz is, and intellectualize around the process and the craft. In the end, when you hear something with no preconceptions of it being improvised or not, you're going to listen differently. Indiscriminately. And listen for other things that are important in music.
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Depends how old you're talking. Of course not in Birds day or even in the 60s - 70s. But even in the 50s they spliced tape. You can hear it on done early recordings. They'd edit takes.
Originally Posted by danwaineo
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There's like five or six guitars going at once on some of those PMG records...I always thought of them as like really good prog rock records...anyone who thinks there ain't some serious editing and overdubbing going on doesn't have ears.
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[QUOTE=mr. beaumont;361148]There's like five or six guitars going at once on some of those PMG records...I always thought of them as like really good prog rock records...anyone who thinks there ain't some serious editing and overdubbing going on doesn't have ears.[/QUOTEl]
There really were 5 or 6 guitars; he hides tiny children from North Korea in his hair and they play simultaneously......and smile constantly, but you can't see it because of the hair.
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Ah...that makes sense. I thought I noticed his hair quivering in one of those orchestrion videos.
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How do you guys feel about the fact that every show from the early 80's to the mid 90's had backing tracks and in most tours half the band (percussionists/vocalists sometimes) were barely if at all (on some nights) going through the PA?
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They'd have to be really skinny to go through the PA. Originally Posted by danihrabin
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lol
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That actually does not surprise me; so much of his music sounds absolutely perfect, no mistakes, perfectly balanced, no extraneous noise; not surprised.
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Back when I was a radio DJ, I did a stint at a country station- got to see a nice program on Reba McEntire laying down her vocals over and over- and then the engineer would just punch in and out of the various tracks on the board until they had a sound they liked. My recording strategies changed that day.
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This surprised me. It runs so counter to the concept of jazz and I thought of Metheny as being the quintessential jazz musician.
Multiple takes, I could see that as a possibility which is still counter to the concept of jazz.... but composites... jeez.
I know not all albums were recorded this way.
Lee Ritenours album 'Friendship' was a direct to disc recording. For direct to disc recordings the musicians played two live 20 minute or so sets and they were recorded direct to disc.
I also had the album , The Three by Ray Brown, Shelly Manne and Joe Sample that was a direct to disc recording. I remember I had that one on virgin vinyl. Man that was a great album both for the playing of the musicians and the quality of the recording.
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I don't doubt it, aren't heartbroken by it and have seen Pat live enough times and in enough different group configurations to know that he gets it done at a very high level all the time.
The Travels live album has a couple of clams left on it, so at least those weren't doctored in the studio.
Outside of the jazz world, that happens all the time. I remember The Eagles Live album was touted as being one of the least "live" live albums of all time.
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Legendary jazz record producers Orin Keepnews and Teo Macero have been very candid about how much manipulation was done, even in the earliest days of tape, to do whatever it took to salvage or improve a product for the market. Overdubbing was done as early as the 50's, and you'd be surprised how much classic Monk, Mingus, etc, was manipulated. Most of us know that all of Miles' first electric period studio records were just a cut and splice job by Teo Macero culled from hours of jam sessions.
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Obviously, you're not Roger Nichols, but congrats, being there is quite an accomplishment. Originally Posted by docbop
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Don't think Wes cut ay albums that way, certainly not the live ones! (but maybe the "strings" ones...)
If its cut'n'paste, it's composition, it ain't true improvisation. I don't really marvel at composition so much - not in Jazz anyway. The true alchemists, the conjurers, they didn't / wouldn't cut'n'paste, and if they did I'd be disappointed.
Shit, even my solos are wonderful when I splice my good bits together!
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I've read an interview where Metheny freely admits to editing his solos in the studio - IIRC he views the studio as an instrument unto itself. Judging from most of the comments on this thread, no one really minds (myself included) because Metheny is such a stone cold mofo, whose live playing is probably as, or more 'perfect' than just about any other guitarist I can think of. Makes sense that Brecker did it (again - 'perfect' player). I know Holdsworth (obviously) overdubs his solos, so I'm assuming he edits and edits and edits them as well.
Slightly different tangent - I really dig the Tristano school, and players like Warne Marsh in particular would release 'albums' of edited solos by themselves - so a track off the album might just be Warne blowing 2 or 3 swinging choruses over the changes to a standard - a serving up of the 'choice cuts'. Might seem a bit rough or even unprofessional to someone who likes intros, and overall arrangements etc. - but I dig it's unpretentious raw vibe - just displaying a fleeting moment in time where everything just clicked.
Often in jazz, whether it's yourself improvising or someone else - there's those moments where the band and soloist catch a wave and it just 'works' - elusive - I guess Pat is just compiling all those moments into a complete form, like tons of others it seems.
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A record is a big lie. It's been that way for 50 years.
I'm hearing a bit of envy in the OP's approach.
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