Best BeBop guitar players?

[bobsguitars09]

Anyone have a list of great bebop guitar players to listen to?

[Little Jay]

A quick Be Bop guitarist pick that comes to mind:

The old guys:
Grant Green
Wes Montgomery
Barney Kessel
Kenny Burrell
Joe Pass
Jim Hall
Jimmy Rainy
Tal Farlow
George Benson
Jimmy Ponder

the newer generations:
Emily Remler
Kurt Rosenwinkel
Jesse van Ruller
Martijn van Iterson
Vic Juris
Bireli Lagrene
Ed Bickert
Giuseppe Continenza
Mark Whitfield
Russell Malone

This is by far not complete of course, just a quick selection to help you on your way.......

[ingeneri]

Uh, with all respect to Little Jay, while all those players are great jazz guitarists more than a few of them (Vic Juris, Kurt, Jim Hall, Ed Bickert) are not considered be bop players.

Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, Wes, and Benson are all more associated with the related but different hard bop sub-genre given it's greater use of blues and gospel themes.

Mark Whitfeild was a neo-bop young lion, but he's been doing more of a fusion thing for the last ten years.

Here's the more narrow list I'd go with:

Originals
Charlie Christian (present at the creation of Minton's jam sessions)
Barney Kessell (played on Bird's Savow/Dial recordings, 'nuff said)
Billy Bauer (later on a Tristano follower, but also on Bird's Verve stuff)
Tal Farlow
Johnny Smith
Jimmy Raney
Joe Pass (listen to the duos with Herb Ellis to hear the difference between swing and bop)

Modern Boppers
Jimmy Bruno
Roni Ben Hur
Russell Malone (though he goes beyond bop as well)
Emily Remler
Sheryl Bailey

[Little Jay]

Ah ok, I'll redefine my definition of Be Bop.....

[markf]

you might check out Greg Clayton from Montreal.

He's a VERY good player, has a website with some tunes on it. pretty sure he does lessons too.

His album is "live at Boomers"

he is in the Joe Pass vein.

[m78w]

Greg is also a big Wes and Johnny Smith fan and does some great chord work as well as single-line stuff.

He plays 6-7 nights in Montreal so if you're ever in town he's the guy to check out!

MW

[dblfatstrat]

i'm surprised pat martino isn't mentioned as one of the 'old' guys. for 'new' how about mike stern.

[ingeneri]

i'm surprised pat martino isn't mentioned as one of the 'old' guys. for 'new' how about mike stern.

Again, if we're be bop, we're talking about the music of Bird and Diz. Other forms of jazz, while great, would be seperate and distinct. Therefore, lumping in every player we may like won't answer the original question. I like Kenny Burrell more than any other player, but I wouldn't recommend someone listening to "Guitar Forms" to find out about be bop.

Martino, while rooted firmly in the chitlin' circuit, seems closer to the post-bop of Joe Henderson or Herbie. A good exhibit of this is the Wes tribute album "Remember" where the difference between Martino and Montgomery's approach to the same tunes is apparent.

All the Mike Stern I've heard has been full-on fusion even when he's playing bop tunes.

[dblfatstrat]

Martino used to play w/ sonny stitt, and u know sonny wouldn't play with just anybody, especially if u couldn't bop with the best of them. at that time, martino was one of the few guitar players who could actually play those 'bebop' lines at that speed and accuracy, although he would often repeat familiar licks. check out Don Patterson "Boppin' & Burnin'" ... is this not bop?! on this album, the band plays tunes such as 'Donna Lee', 'Epistrophy', 'Now's the Time', etc. heck even the album name includes the word 'bop'. He also plays killer bebop on "El Hombre."

As for Mike Stern, okay, maybe he's considered more fusion that true bebop, whatever that may be, but upon listening to his playing carefully, one can hear how his lines came from the tradition of bird/diz, although he himself came from a blues/rock background. there is so much bebop influence in his playing. check "Standards..." and "Give and Take".

Perhaps we have a slightly different definition of bebop... when i think of bebop i think in terms of displaying technique, virtuosity, outlining the changes, chromatic approaches, horn-like lines, etc., but of course still stemming from the tradition of bird/diz.

[hot ford coupe]

There's also Bill D'Arango. I think that's the right spelling of his name. He's not well represented in the CD sections but you can hear him take a solo on a Dizzy Gillespie performance of 52nd street. That version may be on Youtube. I'd have to check to be certain.

[ingeneri]

My saying someone is not a be bop player is not an insult. In fact, in Martino's case I think it's a compliment acknowledging that his artistic vision is broader and that he's creatively incorporated his own unique modern ideas. I'm not implying that any of these people can't play be bop, I'm just saying what they do encompasses more than that tradition. Personally, I think that's a good thing. Coming up with something culturally relevant that breaks new ground while staying faithful to the "tradition" is the true challenge of playing this music.

But if someone is requesting recommendations for be bop, having them check out Martino's Footprints isn't really being responsive. It's great music and everyone should check it out, but it's not what is being asked for.

I'm willing to have a very broad definition of "jazz", but, to me, "be bop" is a very specific sub-genre. Even though it can, and should, still be played today, be bop came from a very particular time and circumstances (read The Birth of Be Bop). WWII, the recording ban, the collapse of big bands, early black nationalism, modernism, and the inclusion of jazz musicians among the black professional class were all integral to how the music developed.

Looking at it from less of a historical perspective, my attempt at a narrow definition would include the following technical aspects: swing based music using frenetic tempos, angular melodies, tri-tone substitutions, flatted fifths, and upper chord extensions. While the walking bass and much of the harmonic structures from the swing era was maintained, the cymbals took over in outlining the beat with the other drums used more for accents, stride piano was replaced by a freer block chord style, and the guitar became much rarer with the abandonment of Freddie Green four-on-the-floor comping.

Even by the 1950s, changing or adding major elements had made the music something else (cool jazz, hard bop, soul jazz, and, later on, non-modal post bop). This is all good music and undeniably jazz, but it had evolved to the point of no longer being be bop.

[Jazzaluk]

Nice post Ingeneri! Understanding the roots and evolution of BeBop is certainly a worthwhile study for any Jazz enthusiast. Personally, I see Bebop as the center piece of the jazz language from which many new and great styles evolved.

[Fernando]

Uh, with all respect to Little Jay, while all those players are great jazz guitarists more than a few of them (Vic Juris, Kurt, Jim Hall, Ed Bickert) are not considered be bop players.

Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, Wes, and Benson are all more associated with the related but different hard bop sub-genre given it's greater use of blues and gospel themes.

Mark Whitfeild was a neo-bop young lion, but he's been doing more of a fusion thing for the last ten years.

Here's the more narrow list I'd go with:

Originals
Charlie Christian (present at the creation of Minton's jam sessions)
Barney Kessell (played on Bird's Savow/Dial recordings, 'nuff said)
Billy Bauer (later on a Tristano follower, but also on Bird's Verve stuff)
Tal Farlow
Johnny Smith
Jimmy Raney
Joe Pass (listen to the duos with Herb Ellis to hear the difference between swing and bop)

Modern Boppers
Jimmy Bruno
Roni Ben Hur
Russell Malone (though he goes beyond bop as well)
Emily Remler
Sheryl Bailey

I agree!

I want to add to your list some names of other great Bop guitarist: Bobby Broom (worked with Sonny Rollins), Rodney Jones (worked with Kenny Burrel) and Pat Metheny (his work in Pat Metheny Trio).

[VKat]

...
Here's the more narrow list I'd go with:

Originals
...
Johnny Smith
...

That was a super post overall! (Old thread, I know.)

However, was Johnny Smith specifically a Be Bop jazz guitar player?
As far as I remember from Matt Warnock's interview he was modest enough to even not call himself specifically a jazz musician. I don't know what he was thinking while saying that though.

10 minutes later...
Wiki says that: John Henry Smith II (June 25, 1922 – June 11, 2013) was an American cool jazz and mainstream jazz guitarist.
How true is that?

[pingu]

Uh,

Joe Pass (listen to the duos with Herb Ellis to hear the difference between swing and bop)

That's interesting to me ,
Could you expand on that a bit ?

( I confess to that I've never been able to tell
Swing from bop styles , seriously !)

I like Herbs playing a lot. , is that swing ?
Then surely Christian is swing too ??

Confused

[rpjazzguitar]

I agree!

I want to add to your list some names of other great Bop guitarist: Bobby Broom (worked with Sonny Rollins), Rodney Jones (worked with Kenny Burrel) and Pat Metheny (his work in Pat Metheny Trio).

I think of Jimmy Raney as maybe the purest bopper on that list.

But, for the purest I ever heard, check out this recording of Warren Nunes (the heat starts around :45).

[Jazzstdnt]

That was a super post overall! (Old thread, I know.)

However, was Johnny Smith specifically a Be Bop jazz guitar player?
As far as I remember from Matt Warnock's interview he was modest enough to even not call himself specifically a jazz musician. I don't know what he was thinking while saying that though.

10 minutes later...
Wiki says that: John Henry Smith II (June 25, 1922 – June 11, 2013) was an American cool jazz and mainstream jazz guitarist.
How true is that?

These are not absolutes, but Johnny certainly knew himself and his artistic vision and goals.

I would say just listen to him, and compare him to Wes, Joe, Jim, Kenny, Grant, etc. Look at his tune choices compared to theirs too.

You will begin to understand where he was coming from when he said that about himself.

[Jazzstdnt]

That's interesting to me ,
Could you expand on that a bit ?

( I confess to that I've never been able to tell
Swing from bop styles , seriously !)

I like Herbs playing a lot. , is that swing ?
Then surely Christian is swing too ??

Confused

Yes Herb was more swing than bop, when compared to Joe. He stated as much.

[Jazzstdnt]

I think of Jimmy Raney as maybe the purest bopper on that list.

Maybe, but it seems to me that Joe Pass had more success at playing be-bop than any of them. Nobody knows who Jimmy Raney was (by that I mean the general non-jazz fan public).

Wes was obviously great too but made it big when he went commercial with CTI (same as Benson later did).

Joe stayed closer to home base.

[christianm77]

For pure bop my favourite remains Jimmy Raney. Bruce Foreman is also a badass.

But the definition of what is bebop is pretty different from person to person - for example for me Wes was a bopper in the ‘50s but less so in the ‘60s. Someone above thought Kurt Rosenwinkel was a bopper *shrugs* He isn’t to me, and no Intuit doesn’t count either (he plays bop with a bop rhythm section but doesn’t sound like a bop guy in that way.)

That said I do think more modern approaches to technique have given bop guitar a new lease of life.... look at Pasquale

[christianm77]

Joe is great too obviously - I listen to him less though for some reason

[christianm77]

To me Mike Stern is more of a bebop guitarist than Kurt.

Actually early Lage Lund has some of my favourite bop guitar playing. He was all over that stuff. He seems to have abandoned it.

[Alter]

Actually early Lage Lund has some of my favourite bop guitar playing. He was all over that stuff. He seems to have abandoned it.

Yeah, when he was still in Berklee he was more of a terrific straight ahead line player.

Rodney Jones definitely belongs to both? Or the post bop category , an amazing player

[David B]

If we're talking pure bebop, I question some of the suggestions above.

The legends:
Charlie Christian
Barney Kessel (like Christian, there at the transition from swing to bop)
Jimmy Raney
Tal Farlow
'50s Wes Montgomery
Chuck Wayne
Jimmy Gourley
Rene Thomas
Billy Bean

On the current scene:
Pasquale Grasso
Joe Cohn
Roni Ben-Hur (earlier recordings)
Yotam Silberstein (earlier recordings)
Bruce Foreman
Félix Lemerle
Ofer Landsberg

[John A.]

Maybe, but it seems to me that Joe Pass had more success at playing be-bop than any of them. Nobody knows who Jimmy Raney was (by that I mean the general non-jazz fan public).

Wes was obviously great too but made it big when he went commercial with CTI (same as Benson later did).

Joe stayed closer to home base.

That depends a lot on the point in time you're considering. The arcs of his and Joe Pass's lives and careers were pretty much 180 degrees apart in terms of career prosperity and the impacts of their addictions.Raney was one of the few guitar players who was actually part of the Bebop scene and was a quite successful in the 50s through the mid 60s, e.g., long associations with Getz, Farmer, Norvo, etc., multiple albums as a leader, tons of studio work. Joe Pass was in NY in the early 50s, but didn't really make it, and spent about a decade scuffling and cycling through jail terms. His career didn't really start until the early 60s after Synannon, and his wider success didn't really happen until the early 70s.

John