Best BeBop guitar players?

**sgosnell** · 06-08-2018, 10:40 AM

The general public doesn't know any names on any of those lists. Maybe a few have heard of Benson, fewer Montgomery, and the rest, both new and older, are unknown outside of a small circle. The general public is unable to name a single bebop musician outside of maybe Dizzy and Parker, if they even know those. The artists that are well-known to the general public now are almost completely unknown to me. I see names here and there, but I don't listen to their music, and I couldn't name any by sight or by hearing. And that's all fine with me. I listen to what I like, and don't apologize for it. Nor do I criticize what others listen to. There's enough music to go around.

**ScottM** · 06-08-2018, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

For pure bop my favourite remains Jimmy Raney.

Mine, too!

**christianm77** · 06-08-2018, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt

Maybe, but it seems to me that Joe Pass had more success at playing be-bop than any of them. Nobody knows who Jimmy Raney was (by that I mean the general non-jazz fan public).

Wes was obviously great too but made it big when he went commercial with CTI (same as Benson later did).

Joe stayed closer to home base.

I think if by 'success' you mean public attention, you'd be right: Joe Pass is probably the best known bebop guitar player. (And one of the best too, coincidentally.) George Benson is obviously more famous, but not so much as a guitarist.

But in terms of the music that's entirely irrelevant metric of success lol. I mean, who in the jazz guitar community goes: "well I would listen to Raney but he didn't sell as many records as Joe, so I'll just listen to Joe"?

**Jazzstdnt** · 06-09-2018, 11:21 PM

Record sales, butts in seats, critical acclaim.

Best measures i know of. Not perfect, nothing is, but best measures I know of.

And my belief is that Joe compares favorably on those measures.

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt

Record sales, butts in seats, critical acclaim.

Best measures i know of. Not perfect, nothing is, but best measures I know of.

And my belief is that Joe compares favorably on those measures.

The best measure I know of whether or not I like something is whether or not I like it.

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by djg

nobody captured charlie parker's spirit better on guitar than grant green.

imo he was the first true post-CC player.

What about Barney?

**don_oz** · 06-10-2018, 04:38 AM

Pasqaule grasso

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by djg

there is nothing post-CC about barney imo. he never left that realm. grant and barney are one jazzgeneration apart.

The chords though.

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by djg

yeah, but oscar moore and irving ashby had great chords too. CC played fantastic chord solos. the "best bebop guitarist" should have the same balls-to-the-wall approach that bird had imo.

I have to say to my shame I don’t think I’ve ever heard cc playing a chord solo (!) - could you dig out an example?

I think of Barney as an innovator in terms of added note chords and colouristic harmony on guitar. Obviously there are earlier sophisticated harmonists - the swing era was full of them - but they were more traditional in their chord choices.

But I should listen a bit closer to Oscar perhaps. It’s always worthwhile....

(Django may be a counter example here btw. I’m a little fuzzy on the history, but I think a lot of his voicings came direct from the fact that he couldn’t make simple major/minor rhythm shapes. If you watch the footage of the Hot Club the rhythm guitar players favour pretty straight harmony.)

**don_oz** · 06-10-2018, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by djg

yea, if you suck out all the fun

Care to explain?

**Hep To The Jive** · 06-10-2018, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I have to say to my shame I don’t think I’ve ever heard cc playing a chord solo (!) - could you dig out an example

**PMB** · 06-10-2018, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by djg

nobody captured charlie parker's spirit better on guitar than grant green.

imo he was the first true post-CC player.

Definitely the spirit of Parker (no surprise that both Bird and GG were hugely influential on George Benson).

For my money, in terms of rhythmic drive, line shape and translating bop articulation as practised by Parker, Bud Powell and Clifford Brown onto the guitar, Billy Bean's the man:

(First solo):

**sgosnell** · 06-10-2018, 10:54 AM

That Stardust solo by Christian became rather famous. It was recorded several times with Goodman, and it was played regularly. There is one recording of a radio show, the first time it was played in public with Goodman, who said that when Christian played it in a practice session it nearly broke up the session. It knocked everyone out.

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 11:19 AM

Great solo, but in terms of chordal language it’s all very swing era. What I would expect from guitarists of the time (players like Allan Reuss owned that shit)

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 11:26 AM

For instance

This is a very different style to what Barney would do years later

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 11:35 AM

Anyway if you listen to something like our love is here to stay by Barney or something it’s clear that he was doing something quite different.

And early Barney can sound very much like Charlie Christian - but by the 50s he’s found his own thing. Just the way he approaches bebop lines for instance.

**Jazzstdnt** · 06-10-2018, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The best measure I know of whether or not I like something is whether or not I like it.

Didn't get the memo that this was all about you.

**don_oz** · 06-10-2018, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by djg

i was joking. he is a great guitarist. his approach is just too low-key for my tastes. people often forget how loud and energetic the old guys used to play. the poor recordings usually do not reflect this. and there was so much interaction with the drummers.

Love that record. I get what you mean, but I think that's more of his solo stuff. If you haven't yet, check him out with a trio line up or quartet/quintet.

This doesn't seem that low-key to me.

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt

Didn't get the memo that this was all about you.

What is about other than someone’s personal taste?

Tbh anything else is kind of pseudo intellectual bs. Which is great after a few beers, nothing against that. But it’s worth bearing it in mind for what it is.

If you want to make an ‘objective’ case that Joe Pass is the best bebop player or something - well it’s a bit of a waste of time to be honest. Joe was great, of course. I listen more to Jimmy Raney, but I would never argue that Joe isn’t in the running.

But I don’t see it as a competition.

If you want to say Joe was the best known bebop player, and also without question one of the leading bebop guitarists, you are imo correct.

**joe2758** · 06-10-2018, 12:44 PM

i like Pasquale Grasso 100 x more than Joe Pass, but then again I hate fun

**grahambop** · 06-10-2018, 12:48 PM

I once met a bloke at a jazz gig in a pub who declared that the best jazz guitarist ever was Hank Marvin.

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

i like Pasquale Grasso 100 x more than Joe Pass, but then again I hate fun

Pasquale is clearly coming from a totally different place to Joe.

They both play bop guitar in terms of note choices. Well, PG plays bop piano. On the guitar.

**christianm77** · 06-10-2018, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I once met a bloke at a jazz gig in a pub who declared that the best jazz guitarist ever was Hank Marvin.

Hah! I do think personal taste has limits
In these discussions. No offence to the twang meister general of course.

I did meet Hank at a gig once - he’s a dude! Loves his Django and is a proper guitar nerd.