Time Feel

**3625** · 03-06-2013, 08:45 PM

It's been suggested that a dedicated thread be started regarding time feel. I'm interested in it, so I thought I'd get the ball rolling.

- How important is good time?

- Which players have really good time? (30's to present)

- And how does time feel vary amongst these players? eg. Charlie Christian compared to Wes Montgomery

**jtizzle** · 03-07-2013, 02:12 AM

Time is probably the most important thing in playing. An audience can't recognize all the altered and hip notes you're putting into a line, but they can tell if you can't count to 4.

To #2 and #3, I actually look at it in another way.
I think every single guy you listen to has great time. Wes, Christian, all the way to Jim Hall, Joe Pass, to the guys today like Rosenwinkel.
I think it's more about two things. First, it's about preference. I define good time as someone who can really play precisely on any part of any beat, and can keep a steady tempo. Preference comes in if I'm into Dexter Gordon stuff, where he's really laid back on the beat, or if I'm into some Coltrane stuff, who is more precise on the beat, sometimes on top of it. I'll prefer the guy who's doing the thing I'm into. But there's guys that can do both.
Which leads to the second point, what they can do with the time. Some guys have great rhythmic ideas and can put it into some good time. Jim Hall is a great example, he does some really cool rhythmic displacement things, which is a good demonstration of good time. It shows his control of the rhythm, which stems directly from his time feel.

**djangoles** · 03-07-2013, 12:41 PM

Wayne Krantz isn't to shabby with his time....LOL

**mr. beaumont** · 03-07-2013, 01:24 PM

I do think good time seperates the men from the boys...but good time is a broad definition for me...I like guys who can be locked in pocket all the time, like say, Mike Clark...or cats who are more elastic like Paul Motian or Jaki Byard...

Guitar wise, I'd agree, Metheny's great...so is Lage Lund...Django was perfect too...

It's one of those "I know it when I hear it" things...there's the obvious stuff, and then there's the stuff that just works.

Seems to me a lot of the modern guys who play with rhythms outside of straight up swing have great time...David Sanchez, Francisco Mela, Esperanza Spalding, Lionel Loueke...

**jtizzle** · 03-07-2013, 01:29 PM

Yeah, one of the hardest things to do is to play around the beat, because the metronome doesn't mark parts of the beat, it just marks the beat. I think of this type of time feel is the rhythmic form of microtonality. Just like microtonality is the notes between our known notes, playing around beats is playing on beats between the beats we know.
The best thing is to start at a really slow speed. Really obviously play ahead or behind the beat. It will feel almost like a flan. Gradually speed it up and once you get to like 100bpm it will feel more natural, not to separated from the downbeat.

**Reg** · 03-07-2013, 02:40 PM

3625... cool

I generally break it down into two steps.

1) your need to internalize the pulse, straight time. Doesn't matter what that pulse is, how complicate or simple. Without that basic reference... you'll hit walls. By that I mean you will run into rhythmic situations where you lose your internal pulse... you lose your beginning reference. You need to re-establish that reference internalized beat.

We're all human... we screw up for whatever reason. Usually there's a reason why not related to that internalized pulse.
There are lots of methods of developing that internalized pulse... the goal is to get past that method of developing and feel, trust your feel. It's not an ego thing, competitive high and mighty or what ever... you can't get to the next step with out having that basic reference.

The next step, still in that first concept is to become aware of all the sub-divisions. You need to be able to recognize those sub-divisions. The goal is the same... internalize the mechanical breakdown of the sub-division.

Just as most of us are able to recognize and feel quarter notes... either in relationship to a pulse or as those quarter notes being the pulse. you need to try and be able to recognize and feel more complex rhythmic combinations... in relationship to a pulse.

It's very related to sight reading, you don't physically read the rhythmic figure... you recognize the figure and feel it as you play it. Your actually reading the figures ahead, your recognizing the rhythmic figures ahead, that's what sight reading is... the ability to recognize rhythmic figures ahead of what your actually playing. Not the physical mechanical interpretation of what that rhythm is.

Now the good part...
2) What gives time different style.. that groove, in the pocket etc... is how we organize where we play on or off the beat... more specifically, where we play on the groove, the accent pattern.

But before you begin to develop different rhythmic relationships with time... you need that basic reference... straight time, the pulse.
I'll get into what playing on or off the beat actually means... it's not magic, it's a very mechanical skill as with most.
That around the beat concept, as Jtizzle referred to is very well defined and is very related to the metronome pulse.
It begins with very mechanical sub-divisions... but becomes more complicated with similar organizational concepts being applied to the attack locations of accent patterns. This also becomes internalized and when performing with other musicians... the basic groove, also becomes subject to being a reference with possible new organizational relationships developing.

But without that beginning reference... the basic straight pulse, as with many aspects of musicianship, you'll hit walls.

I know many times my BS may sound just like that...BS, but you won't develop musician skills without understanding what your trying to do... I tend to skip the inspirational pep talks and may get too technical... but being able to feel one groove may be just that... one groove. I'll get into how I feel or count on or off the beat feel later.

Reg

**Rick5** · 03-07-2013, 02:49 PM

This is a cool video:

Lesson # 8: Jazz Basics-Time and Feel | Alleged Artist Lessons

I like the examples around the 3:00 mark.

**NSJ** · 03-07-2013, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

Good topic...Check Metheny on the infamous "lesson" vid above. This part 3 of 3. He mentions there are only a very few gtr players in history who played great time....And I agree, there are only about 4 or 5 of the "originals" who had "that thing".

That's a fascinating video. The stuff about the dotted 8ths as opposed to the triplet feel, jeez, totally guilty as charged. I imagine many people are.

My teacher put it in more stark words, once--basically saying, "if you can't get the time-feel right, everything else falls like a house of cards. You got nothing."

The concomitant remark about Sonny Rollins' ability to create long lines from simple ideas, which guitarists aren't as good at because of the mechanical nature of the instrument is very interesting to me.

**djangoles** · 03-07-2013, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

That's a fascinating video. The stuff about the dotted 8ths as opposed to the triplet feel, jeez, totally guilty as charged. I imagine many people are.

My teacher put it in more stark words, once--basically saying, "if you can't get the time-feel right, everything else falls like a house of cards. You got nothing."

The concomitant remark about Sonny Rollins' ability to create long lines from simple ideas, which guitarists aren't as good at because of the mechanical nature of the instrument is very interesting to me.

Not just a sightreading book by a long shot....but a deep look into what makes something swing, groove, etc....to distill it down to a simple sound bite, triplet subdivide everything (if were talking about a classic BeBop/Jazz feel)....but there is a lot more in the book...

Took a few lessons with him here in New York and the majority of the time we just played the melody rhythms (accented) of different Bebop Heads on congas in a constant 6/8 (12/8) pattern.

How To Sight Read Jazz and Syncopated Type Rhythms

**jdaguitar2** · 03-07-2013, 05:01 PM

This is a very interesting topic, one which I believe is constantly evolving as we hear more players and develop our own technique to new levels. I find that time is extremely important and in jazz we are lucky to have somewhat more freedom than in other styles.

I think all the great players have unique ways of playing behind, in the middle of, and in front of the beat. Each approach can be used interchangeably and within the same solo. I find Ornette Coleman's approach particularly interesting, also Woody Shaw is very unique.

**Jeff Stocks** · 03-07-2013, 05:51 PM

- How important is good time?

Increasingly critical to me. I finally found a good teacher a few years ago who pointed out the importance in a tangible way, both of having good time and a good time feel. I am distracted now by people who have bad time - either rushing or dragging or having uneven note values in phrases (that kind of cliche swing feel thing). I work on it a lot and don't see that stopping for a long, long time.

I'll add that it also means having control over the rhythmic value of your phrases to me.

- Which players have really good time? (30's to present)

Charlie Parker, Trane, Wes, Michael Brecker, Bill Frisell come to mind from the 'past'. For guitar players, Kurt, Mike Moreno, Lage Lund, and Wayne Krantz are the biggies to me now.

-And how does time feel vary amongst these players? eg. Charlie Christian compared to Wes Montgomery

It does vary and some players can pull off a sloppier time feel very well. People like Keith Jarrett for example. Their melodic content is so amazing that time isn't as much of a focus. But for players with great time, it almost becomes the strongest thing I notice. Everything they play just seems to have special force to it. I have heard Kurt just playing scales during workshops and it sounds amazing.

It's one of those "I know it when I hear it" things...there's the obvious stuff, and then there's the stuff that just works.

I agree. If you want to hear what good time sounds like, take a solo by a player you like and slow it down to half speed. Listen to how even the notes are and how they line up with the beat of the group. It is amazing to hear. I describe it as their being a 'resistance' to their lines - like an imaginary wall that stops them from being anywhere besides exactly where they need to be.

**pkirk** · 03-07-2013, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Stocks

Charlie Parker, Trane, Wes, Michael Brecker, Bill Frisell come to mind from the 'past'.

Did you really mean Frisell? Maybe I'm old but I don't think of him as being "from the past." And I really dig Frisell,
but he wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list of guitarists with really good time, he's more an example of someone whose style depends relatively little on time (to my tin ears anyway).

**Reg** · 03-07-2013, 06:47 PM

Here a few pianist that I enjoy and appreciate their time... more so than the $ approach.
Not their best performances... but since were getting into the listen modes...

If Gonzalo isn't your thing... you still gotta dig Michel...

Michel Camilo - On Fire (Horacio Hernandez and Anthony Jackson) - YouTube

**3625** · 03-07-2013, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

Good topic...Check Metheny on the infamous "lesson" vid above. This part 3 of 3. He mentions there are only a very few gtr players in history who played great time....And I agree, there are only about 4 or 5 of the "originals" who had "that thing".

I just downloaded this onto my computer in case it gets pulled off youtube someday. Metheny - "well someone's telling you now!" lol

Jim Hall definitely is one of those players with 'that thing'

Pat talking about the eighth thing - advocating a more 'straight' feel. To me that's a real 60's thing, typified by Wes, going on to players like Martino, then Metheny etc. Be interested to see what others think about this, agree/disagree etc.

Feeling eighths as broken triplets? Is that what Pat is saying here? (tri-pl)+(et),(tri-pl)+(et),(tri-pl)+(et),(tri-pl)+(et), ? Would like some input from you guys on this in particular

**marcwhy** · 03-08-2013, 08:57 AM

+1 on Wayne Krantz!
He has a few great audio lessons ($5 each!) on his web site on time/phrasing.

**ecj** · 03-08-2013, 09:28 AM

Charlie Parker is the best at this, ever, IMO. He invented the modern, straighter, time feel, but you hear him doing all kinds of incredible stuff. I think Lester Young pioneered a lot of this, but I love how he'll get way out on the front of the beat for some of his aggressive blues licks, drop waaaay back to the point where I'm tense because I feel like it's impossible that he can really be that in control on a lot of standard heads. Not to mention the ultra-precise double time, etc.

Joe Pass always does this weird thing where he swings the double time on fast passages. The first few times I heard it, it made me really uncomfortable. I try to emulate it a lot now, because I think it's a really cool way of manipulating the flow of the tempo. Most people do this on solos if the whole combo goes into double time, but I'd never heard someone do it solo before until I heard Pass.

I think Wes definitely has the best guitar feel. I read an interesting article a while back that suggested that his thumb "upstroke" has a different quality than a typical upstroke and contributed to his great feel. All I know is that I find it easier to play with a really strong groove if I'm doing the "every downstroke is a reststroke" system to emulate his thumb approach.

**NSJ** · 03-08-2013, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by ecj

Joe Pass always does this weird thing where he swings the double time on fast passages. The first few times I heard it, it made me really uncomfortable. I try to emulate it a lot now, because I think it's a really cool way of manipulating the flow of the tempo. Most people do this on solos if the whole combo goes into double time, but I'd never heard someone do it solo before until I heard Pass.

My teacher was a very close friend of Joe's. In a article he wrote about Joe for JJG Magazine, he mentioned the following:

"One night at a gig Joe was really cooking, and I realized what he was doing. He was playing on top of the beat so much that he was almost but not quite rushing. That was how he created tension and excitement when he played. When I mentioned it to him, he said that it was very observant of me to figure that out, and that it was a very difficult thing to achieve, that it had taken him a very long time to master that particular technique."

**Reg** · 03-08-2013, 11:43 AM

So might be cool to get into the difference between... imposing different time frames as compared to playing on or off the beat...
Typical latin time, straight with tension created by metrically imposing different sub-divisions over existing time... the reference. The attacks are usually organized mechanically... 3 over 2... 4 over 3 etc... and the combinations of common and compound meter, mixing of the two, and then stretching.

Then more in the jazz tradition from swing... you can play straight swing with either of the dotted 8th and 16th or triplets approach... usually somewhere between. That can lock and become fixed. Or you can then also play with location of attack.

Sorry about the use of straight swing thing... an oxymoron, maybe steady swing.

Cool comment about Pass time. I use the technique and another version of... playing straight or with swing, but imposing different metric sub-division over existing time frame... very easy to have train wreck.

Maybe some vid examples of different feels and what makes those feels. You can mechanically rhythmically somewhat notate the pattern, or a phrase. Somewhat useless except maybe in a conceptual understanding. Take style labels and have rhythmic examples... somewhat like sample drum or percussion parts.

**djangoles** · 03-08-2013, 11:46 AM

Not Jazz, but some serious grooves on this entire album, too bad they went disco/lover ballads after the second disc.

Allen Toussaint is the Producer/Sometimes Member

Chocolate Milk (band) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**djangoles** · 03-08-2013, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

So might be cool to get into the difference between... imposing different time frames as compared to playing on or off the beat...
Typical latin time, straight with tension created by metrically imposing different sub-divisions over existing time... the reference. The attacks are usually organized mechanically... 3 over 2... 4 over 3 etc... and the combinations of common and compound meter, mixing of the two, and then stretching.

Right.....

which is another of Mike Longo's big points for lack of a better word, syncopation. What appears to be on/off beat accents are in reality and should be felt as different combinations of super-imposed meters, (usually, but not always oraganized over some form of a 2 or 4 bar repeated pattern). His reasoning is that the "One" of every new measure is universally felt and played as a strong downbeat, therefore every accent is really a downbeat. The need for notation that was easier to read is the main reason there is an "upbeat"....at least that's the way I interpreted him......

Now I'm making a leap here, but I can imagine the early jazz and bebop guys vocalized scat phrases not because they wanted to be cool (LOL), but to communicate these more complex rhythms that would have been either difficult to read (mixed meters)...or not capture the feel correctly (4/4 with accents)....but that's just me thinking out loud.

**danwaineo** · 03-08-2013, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

Did you really mean Frisell? Maybe I'm old but I don't think of him as being "from the past." And I really dig Frisell,
but he wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list of guitarists with really good time, he's more an example of someone whose style depends relatively little on time (to my tin ears anyway).

I think Frisell can sound "sloppy", to the uninitiated. But check this out:

I'm in awe that he can play like that with Motion and Levono without a bass player and a steady stream of quarter notes. You have to have a really good internal sense of time to play in that setting.

**Reg** · 03-08-2013, 05:04 PM

Hey dj...

Yes everything can become a downbeat... just subdivide. And that does work with most latin grooves... but in other types of music...for me also with latin grooves... I don't want all downbeats. I see and hear some attacks or accents to be relationship to a downbeat. I think mike's concepts are generally for... developing and being able to understand the beginning reference... developing that internal pulse and mechanically being able to see and hear all the rhythmic possibilities from that "straight" reference. Which is what I also believe is where one starts.

There are different aspects of application... when your performing in an ensemble and performing a groove together, where there are different parts that interact together to create that groove. The parts generally need to be locked in.

Part of reading is understanding how to interpret the notation... just as changes are basically just an outline of what's implied by the notation... so is rhythmic feel... it would be a waste of time to mechanically notate 4 bar phrases with detailed complex rhythmic notation... that's not the point, with different players the interpretation of basic groove and feel may change. We as jazz players generally want that. The music is designed to be performed
live... and generally not dance music.

If I notate... funky samba as compared to latin funk. Or jazz bossa as compared to rock bossa. I'm telling you the rhythmic feel I want. If I want more I would notate a short rhythmic sample.

I know it's still very common practice to verbally sing example of different feels before playing tunes.

Reg

**Reg** · 03-08-2013, 05:11 PM

Nice post danwaineo...sounds cool, Paul does somewhat keep a pretty steady funky second line feel going.
Thanks for post, nice playing from Frisell...

**3625** · 03-09-2013, 03:28 AM

Reg, I agree about internalising the time - been working today on it, I normally practice with BIAB but good idea to ditch it now and then just to play lines by myself and seeing if it holds up.

Found this article on Jazz Rhythm fundamentals, seems on the money. I'm always trying to go back to the beginning and see if I can get a better insight on some aspect I've maybe overlooked. Anyway, this article explains the whole broken triplet thing really well.

http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/jazz/scia...JazzBasics.pdf

**Reg** · 03-09-2013, 01:41 PM

Yea 3625... nice read,

Very well organizes, thanks. Still that is only the first step, developing that first reference. The 12/8 is one feel... but as good as any for a starting point. And the same with the tonguing... that's a beginning reference. A mechanical method to create the effect of swing. The use of articulations... again are not swing, but a method of mechanically creating a feel. Eventually that feel will become internalized... and you can then tong or articulate anyway you choose.

Still great article... everyone should put tips in their practice.

Thanks Reg