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When I'm using this technique my pick contacts the strings on the side of the pick, more of a brush stoke. To get an even fatter sound more of the side of the pick is "brushed" on the string. It sounds pretty good to my ear and definitely fattens the tone tremendously. Is that how you guys see it?
One thing about this technique that I am convinced of, if you look at Wes's thumb technique and compare it to Benson's, there are some striking similarities. Basically I believe the tecniques Benson has allows him to achieve a similar tone using a pick, but if you actually look at their hands in action you will see what I mean. What do I mean? Remove the pick from you hand while you are using the Benson technique. Now play with your thumb. Of course you no longer have to have the first finger touching your thumb, but if you do you can still achieve the fat Wes tone. If you try to do this same technique with "normal" pick technique your thumb is no longer in the optimal position for "fattness". I believe this is not a coincidence.
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02-23-2013 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by callouscallus
That's probably why it's so easy for Benson to go between thumb and pick.
I think one of the things everyone misses in that Tuck Andress post from years ago is that he never said Benson was the fastest player. He said Benson had the fastest technique without sacrificing feel. Spend 10 minutes listening to "shredders" on YouTube, and you'll understand exactly what he meant.
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Yeah I remember Tuck said something like "Benson has solved the picking thing".
That thought stuck with me and the more I develop this technique the more I think he's right.
It's not just about the speed. That's a side effect. It's the effortless ability to try new things and not be hindered by the picking hand.
More and more I find myself honing in on the "feel" and the tone and clarity of articulation.
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03-17-2013, 08:46 PM #79destinytot Guest
Hi! I just want to say thanks for this excellent thread, especially to Philco for explaining the grip.
At the risk of going off-topic, I'd like to add that the 'tremor thing' is something Sean Levitt used to practise away from the instrument with pick - extremely thick à la gypsy jazz (at least 2mm) and lightly held - in hand.
Again, I really just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone who's posted here.
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Just some curious history material...
This guy here show renaissance lute picking technique, which was reconstructed in the mid 20th century.
It orgins also from using pick primarily (often feather pick - lutes are for angels))), and the in the renaissance when music became more complex and they needed to use all fingers they developed fingerstyle that imitated plectrum technique.. usually lines are played in this style, it allows to play it really fast, and with a kind of bounce good for dancing music especially... later they changed the angle - more basses added..
But I know that some use this aproach for modern ukes also...
What I am talking about is that hand positin is practically the same with Benson's, the only difference is he holds the pick and they use flesh..
It is really interesting, this is a kind of historic background. They actually held lutes like Benson holds guitar embracing it from right side a little, and I think that earlier period when lutes were smaller it was very natural and they naturally held their feather pick like Benson does.
And here is the combined technique in a piece of music
Last edited by Jonah; 05-29-2014 at 09:53 PM.
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Good post - I agree, in essence it's the same position. I also briefly played Viola Da Gamba (renaissance precursor to the violin/cello family) and the bow grip Gamba players use is also similar.
The concept of having the palm facing slightly upwards with all these techniques seems to be a common factor. In terms of bio-mechanics it feels a lot more comfortable to me, in terms of the alignment of tendons all the way up the arm to the shoulder and neck.
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I've been working on this (again) for the past month or so. Bought the J C Stylles tutorial, which cleared up some things that had confused me. I feel better about the grip. But I'm still not wholly sure about how the arm goes.
I haven't seen Stylles play sitting but that's how I always play. I use a cushion (a Dynarette; got the idea from Mimi Fox and I love the thing; no longer use a strap at all) and was planting it on my left leg. That's the norm, I think. But lately I've moved it to the right thigh, which raises the guitar a bit. But I'm unsure about my upper arm and the upper rear bout. Is the upper arm supposed to a) rest on the top rear edge of the guitar or b) hang over it, not putting any weight there at all?
Somehow I feel like a guest on a phone-in self-help show. "Thanks for taking my call--I'll hang up and listen!"
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Russell Malone
Rodney Jones
JC Stylles
Henry Johnson
...all look suspiciously like...
The Man
More and more I just consider "Benson picking" to mean "trying to play like Wes but with a pick".
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Originally Posted by ecj
Thanks! I needed this. Of those pictures, the thing that leaps out at me is Henry Johnson's hand. When I try 'elbow over the edge' it puts my hand real close to the neck pickup. Heck, I've been known to click-click the fretboard with my pick! Anyway, I'll work from these shapshots until I settle into something that works for me. Thanks again!
And I love that line, "trying to play like Wes but with a pick!"
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
One interesting thing I've noticed is that Henry's playing position looks a lot more like young George Benson than JC Stylles who looks more like contemporary George Benson. Probably because Henry learned from George way back when, and JC Stylles was studying videos of later performances.
Henry's hand is almost anchored near the bridge.
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[QUOTE=ecj;435201 Henry's hand is almost anchored near the bridge.[/QUOTE]
They all seem to be that way, but Henry's (and Wes's) fingers are closer to the neck than the other players seem to be. Guess that's just hand size. I'm 5'11" and broad shouldered---my arms and hands are pretty big. (I used to play an Epiphone Dot and after a gig once a guy told, "That looks like a kid's guitar." Meaning that it seemed too small a guitar for such a big man, I guess.)
I find myself banging into the bridge a lot as I adjust to this grip. Sometimes I move it a bit (-I hate it when that happens.) O, and sometimes the tailpiece bites my hand... Nobody knows the troubles I've seen... ;o)
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Okay, here's a picture I just took holding my guitar. I'm sitting, the guitar is on a Dynarette cushion (which rests atop my right thigh).
Attachment 12834
What do you see?
Is there another position you need to see?
It seems to me that my guitar is less tilted than Wes's guitar in the picture of him (above).
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It all starts with getting the hand in the right place. If you get that the arm will follow. I remember when I started with this technique I felt I had to reach around the guitar much more than I was used to but now it feels very natural. My armpit is usually on top of the lower bout of the guitar.
Looking at your photo I'd question your hand position. I prefer to have my hand lower down with the palm facing up more instead of facing the guitar.
Ed Cherry is another great player to check out for this hand position.
Keep working at it. It does take a while to get it right but at least in my case it was well worth the effort.
Mark Cally
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The second thing that glares out at me . . is the shirt. Seems to be the same blue shirt you wore for the photo in your avatar.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
This is more like the Benson position:
In your position if you have the hinged wrist movement it will just go up and down perpendicular to the face of the guitar, your pick would just be tapping the face of the guitar. You can't pick the strings from that position with that movement. You have to use the more common wrist movement.
In the second picture I posted, you can pick the string with a wrist hinge movement... a movement like tapping your finger on a table.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your position, you just can't use the Benson technique from that position (if that's what you're trying to do). (I use both techniques, depending on what I'm trying to do).Last edited by fep; 06-19-2014 at 11:56 PM.
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Thanks, Fep.
Here's what I'm trying to do. The Benson thing as taught by J C Stylles. I've spent a lot of time working on the grip---even carrying a pick in my pocket to practice the grip when away from the guitar; I fall asleep with a pick in my hand---but I realize that my arm position must change. Somehow, it seems to be working against itself. So in that picture I'm thinking more about where I place my arm than with how I'm picking. (I wasn't actually picking, just positioning my arm.)
The latest thing (-between last evening and this morning) is this: I place / sense the inner bone of my elbow on the upper rear face of the guitar. This brings my hand down close to the frets. In fact, I often click the highest fret, which bugs me, so I inch my arm backward a bit.
(I will make a short video of this tonight, so you'll have a better sense of what I mean and can 'see for yourself.')
What I like about that is that it seems a natural way for my arm to be. Things feel more fluid. What I don't like is the pick clicking... I think that before, I held my arm in a way that forced it to work against itself sometimes.
Well, as I said, I'll post a video later and that will give you (and others) more to work with in answering the musical question 'what the heck is he doing?' ;o)
Thanks for the feedback.
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Originally Posted by ecj
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
A few things that jump out at me from the pic:
- Your guitar is too high up. You're scrunching your right arm up, which looks uncomfortable to me. The big benefit of the Benson picking this is that it's a more relaxed position. I'll try to demo later (just making some notes for myself while I'm at work this morning).
- Your hand position. I'd start with the pick literally at 90 degrees to the string, then move forward from there. Right now your hand position looks more like the standard grip than JC Stylles' demo, and you are curling your fingers in, which is a no-no. I'll try to address that later.
- setemupjoe is right that you've got to start with the hand and work backwards. It looks like you're starting from the elbow and working in. One thing to consider is that the size of your guitar is going to play a big part in this. You're a big guy, with what looks like a 16" bout. I had to go up to a 17"er to get comfortable with the position.
Check out Benson with two different guitars:
17"er
his smaller GB model (can't remember the size)
Look at how his elbow hangs over on the first one like the pics of all the guys playing big 17" archtops, then is actually back behind the bout like in standard playing position on the second. You aren't going to shrink the length of your forearm, so you'll have to adjust to the size of the guitar.
As for the tilt, I don't think it matters at all if you are ever going to stand while you're playing. Wes tilted his, but he was always sitting. His position is great, but I stand too much to ever use it.
Rodney Jones made a compromise by going with a thinline 335 style body shape, which I can actually appreciate probably being the most comfortable shape for this style of playing. You gotta keep loose.
Will make a vid later.
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Originally Posted by dingusmingus
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Originally Posted by ecj
I'll make another one within the hour, to make clear what I'm doing today. (I may show what I was doing recently as well, so you can compare and contrast the two.)
I appreciate the help, guys! It means a lot to me, both as a player and as a person.
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Haha, it took forever but here it is. Sorry the sound quality is so bad, I should've plugged in. It's kind of hard to hear the guitar sometimes.
Check it out and see if that helps:
Couple things I noticed from your vids:
- I think you have the shape right, but you need to not let your fingers move while you play until you figure out the wrist motion. Just focus on the wrist movement at first.
- I'd try getting your guitar off of the left leg and onto a strap.
I'm going to be out and about for the evening, but I'll try to check back this weekend if you have more questions.
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So seriously...not trolling....
Those if you who have switched to this...worth it? The practice time you've taken away from tunes, writing, harmonic ideas, etc...
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by ecj
Few quick replies:
--I don't know what size my guitar is (Ibanez Artcore AF 85) but it's not as big as yours. I guess it's around 16 inches, maybe a little less.
--As for the-finger-next-to-the-index finger, yeah, I tend to curl that one in with the other two. It's not intentional but it's becoming a habit. I'll try to coax it out of its shell....
--Today, playing with my arm positioned in what I call the Third Way, I played better and had more of the 'cupped' position you talk about. A lot seemed to fall into place when I positioned my arm that way.
--About JC Stylles holding the guitar sort of out to the side. You're right, of course. I hadn't thought of that. I play in a chair with a back, so I never tried to hold it that way. It's something to try.
--A strap. I do have one. Wore it for years. What I didn't like about the strap was the guitar seemed to move around more than I liked and it dug into my neck at times. The cushion is great for keeping it in one place and encouraging me to plant both feet on the floor. It's good for my posture (-given that I am always reading or writing or playing guitar, my posture needs all the help it can get!)
--O, I've moved the cushion back to the left thigh, so there's no more of that elbow-up-to-my-earhole thing. That was never gonna get me anywhere.
--Yes, I bought the J C Stylles tutorial. I would recommend it to a friend. It helped but there are some things it doesn't show as clearly as one might like, which is why I came to you and the rest of this august crew for further guidance. And boy am I glad I did!
Thank you again. I owe you one. I'm gonna go practice now....
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
Rob MacKillop not feeling well.
Yesterday, 10:43 PM in Everything Else