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Ha! Thanks, Fep. Were you the one who posted the interview where Pat Metheny talked about EVH's great technique? Monster player.
Originally Posted by fep
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07-04-2014 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by fep
lololol . . . that was way cool. Thanks Frank! And, just imagine . . he wasn't even employing "The Benson" method!!
I wonder if his left hand would be able to keep up with his right hand if he was trying to play different notes and from string to string . . as opposed to what he did there. Who knows? Maybe he really is that good? Nah . . . .
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I'm glad that's been cleared up. I have no interest in either 'telling my own story' (whatever that means) or re-creating Benson's music. For that matter, I don't know that I've ever played a single Benson tune. I'm a Charlie Christian / Herb Ellis guy. I want a right hand technique that is my ally, and the Benson approach seems to be it. Thank God! The good news is you're happy doing what you're doing and I'm happy doing what I'm doing. Originally Posted by destinytot
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Pat Metheny talks about Eddie Van Halen: Originally Posted by Patrick2
>>>>>i think i've talked about how much i like allan [holdsworth] in here before (you can do a search on his name).... but eddie, i don't think i have. i really think he is a great player and someone i always enjoy hearing. there was a time i went to [Van Halen] shows as much as possible just to check him out. one time, i got to go back before a show and hear him warm up - which was absolutely mind blowing - he played more incredible music in that 30 minutes of warmup time than he did in the all the vh "shows" that i heard rolled together. he is so creative - it would be great to hear him expand into other areas - especially now that "heavy metal" is about as dead as it could possibly be (who would have thought that that would happen in 1984?) eddie is more like a jazz guy anyway to me - he is always searching for sounds and ideas it seems.
thanks for writing<<<<<
Pat Metheny : Question & Answer
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One thing interesting about the Eddie Van Halen tremelo technique is he keeps his arm and wrist relaxed and does it with an "oscilating" motion (Tuck Andress's term). Different grip and hand/arm position but, the same kind of wrist motion used with the Benson technique. At least it looks that way to me.
Last edited by fep; 07-04-2014 at 02:29 PM.
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07-04-2014, 02:27 PM #206destinytot GuestAgreed. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Interesting observation, fep. I don't know how he came to hold his hand that way, but the whole "mechanism" is relaxed and flowing. Seems effortless. Originally Posted by fep
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It actually does! He has a few different ways of doing things---I'm not sure what his 'default' grip is. In any case, his right hand ain't holding him back! Originally Posted by fep
I wonder what John Scofield (-probably my favorite contemporary jazz guitar soloist) would do with a right hand like that!
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I just started working on "benson picking" thanks to Mark on this thread. I of course am at the very beginning of this adventure and I don't know if I'll really stick to it, but I can immediately see what kind of benefits one can reap by getting this down. The tone is fuller and when it does work, timing is more consistent.
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One of the things JC stresses about this techniques is that it really helps with solidifying one's time / feel. I can sense that already in my playing. And JC grooves like mad---it's one of things most often stressed by reviewers of his records and shows. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Last edited by MarkRhodes; 07-05-2014 at 09:11 AM.
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To those trying this: is your pick really perpendicular to the strings or does the pick hit the string at somewhat of an angle? Also are you all really keeping that index finger perfectly straight or is it a bit curved? Thanks.
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About the index. The point of emphasis is the top section of the finger, the one including the nail. It should not curl in (-toward the thumb). Mine is actually pushed back a tad. It seems odd at first but soon it seems normal. Never hurts or anything. Just looks, well, different. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
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For me the pick is not perpendicular. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Of all the clips I've seen of GB his pick angle changes whilst playing. Usually it seems to be 45 degrees but I'm guessing.
There is only one photo of GB where his pick appears to be approaching 90 degrees and that could have been in the middle of a strum for all we know.
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Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Alain, I'm puzzled by this question because I should think that if a pick were perpendicular to a string, it would be at an angle to it.
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I find that too, that it varies. Though sometimes mine is close to 90 degrees. (I'm not saying that's a good thing, just that I sometimes look down and that's what I see lookin' back at me!) In general, the more my pick tip points the direction of my index, the less likely it is to reach a steep angle. Most often, though, I have the pick-tip pointed toward the second finger. Sometimes it is a shoulder of the pick that is 'pointing' the way the index is. The more I do that, the greater the angle I get. (Again, I don't know if this is a good thing, but "in all travels as the facts unravel, I've found this to be true...") Originally Posted by Philco
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I watched Philco's video and had an ah-ha moment, when he simply said that the hand and fingers positions should be the most natural ones. It makes perfect sense and when you use that principle, you don't even have to think about it, everything falls into place. And there's a great chance that this is how Benson came up with this technique. There's nothing magic or complicated about it : when watching Philco's video I didn't have my guitar, so I just put my hand in front of my stomach (as if I was playing a guitar) in the most natural way, without forcing anything. And there I had it, the perfect position for picking : my arm totally relaxed, the tip of my thumb naturally touched the pad of my index, creating the perfect grip for a guitar pick. Now when I practice, if there's a moment when I'm not sure about how I pick, I just remember the words "relaxed and natural" and I'm immediately back on track. I'm still new to that approach, but it already feels very nice. And I believe in it because, as I said earlier, it just makes perfect sense that the most natural position is also the most efficient one.
Last edited by Nabil B; 07-07-2014 at 04:19 AM.
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Thanks guys. This is very helpful. Philco, Mark, the reason I asked about the straightness of the index and the pick angle is that for my fingers I've experienced exactly the opposite. The straighter my index gets, the greater the pick angle and therefore the more difficult this technique gets for me. If I just hold the pick naturally (which therefore means a slight curve of the index finger), it works perfectly. I just wanted to check because I didn't feel like practicing something that is going be a bad habit later.
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I think a lot about it is natural in the sense that it makes it easy for the hand to do what you want it do, without strain. It is incredibly efficient. Originally Posted by Professor Jones
But, for me at least, the, um, dysfunctional way I held a pick before felt natural (in the sense of being what I was used to, causing no strain or pain, and so on.)
I do think this way is far better and when you say "it feels natural," I know what you mean and Philco does, but for someone who is picking the conventional way and has for a long time, that feels natural to them. It just isn't as effective (for most players). I want to be clear: I'm not disagreeing with you. But I think if you tell people picking the other way that "this one feels natural" they may well, and truthfully say, "Well, my way feels natural to me."
Further, I think that after one gets into the "general vicinity" with this technique, there's still some fine tuning to do. I believe Philco talked about working on this for quite a while. That's where I am, sold on the general principle, but still working out a few fine points. For example, how much to 'roll away' the top of the hand from the strings. Small changes there can make big differences.
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I think it would help if you could show us a picture or a short video. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
I signed up for a month of JC's coaching and I'm going to have to fine-tune a few things, so I'll be making one too. Over time, a series of photos / short vids will provide you with a record of your evolution in learning this.
As for the straight index, it's not the whole finger. And it's not really straight, per se. The point is that the thumb pushes against the index, so the index doesn't curl / curve in. That's my take.
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I think there's a difference between something that became natural through repetition, and something that feels natural from the get go. For me, Benson picking belongs to the second category. I haven't been using it for a long time, yet now when I hold a pick I automatically use the new grip. The switch didn't feel forced at all, that's why I used the term "natural". What does feel unusual is the way the pick hits the strings, and going from one string to the other. That will require some getting used to. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Now I'm not suggesting that this technique is the end all be all of picking, and that everyone should be using it. Russell Malone, just to name one, is using a standard grip and has incredible control, speed and accuracy. But for people like you and me, who felt that their picking technique was lacking and that they weren't seeing any real improvement despite the constant practicing, this new way of picking might be the real ticket to real technical progress.
As for the fine tuning, I honestly doubt that it will make that big of a difference. Now I might be totally wrong about that, but that is what I'm feeling right now. I just think that by using a totally relaxed and natural approach, I will make significant progress. Let us know how the coaching works for you !
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Russel Malone uses Benson picking for all his fast stuff. He sometimes uses standard grip for chord melody pieces.
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As far as I can tell from the videos I've seen, he plays with his pick fairly parallel to the strings and he is using a standard grip (thumb over the edge of the index). Originally Posted by ecj
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His thumb back-bends like crazy. I've seen him live a few times, and he's definitely bringing the pick against the string with the reverse angle like Benson when he starts picking quickly. Pictures are tough because they capture things at weird moments.
I think that picture is from this video:
Go to right around 3:00 and look at his thumb and the angle of the pick when he starts playing 8th note lines.
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I think that's great. I fully understand what you are saying here. I'm not sure you fully understood what I was saying. See, when I was a kid I had few lessons on guitar, learning to make the C, G, D, and dreaded F chords. There was no talk about picking at all. The way I held it was the way I felt like holding it. I had no instruction in it. What I did was wholly natural in the sense of feeling fine from the beginning. (That's why I held it that way.) I strummed a lot and the grip was great for fast strumming for a long time. It was only years later that I realized that grip did not allow me to do some OTHER things I wanted to do. Originally Posted by Professor Jones
Then I experimented with different grips. Started asking good payers I met how they held their picks. Most of 'em looked at me funny, like they'd never thought about it. "Hell, I don't know. Like that. You gotta do whatever's comfortable for you."
This frustrated me no end. My issue was not comfort. The other way didn't feel weird or cause strain. It just wasn't clean and fast enough.
The Benson grip feels natural. I agree. But if it didn't work, I wouldn't stick with it for the sake of the feel.
Also, as for a fine point: I find the most comfortable way to hold a pick is for one shoulder of it to point along the index, while the tip points out from the middle of the finger. (Looked at it profile, it suggests a tomahawk.) That is the most comfortable thing I've found but it isn't what I'm doing because it isn't articulate enough. I tilt the pick (from that position) until it gives me the contact I want. I'm not following feel here but results. Perhaps later when That Muscle in my grip is more developed I will be able to hold the pick "tomahawk" style and get the clarity I want.
Now, none of this should be taken to mean I think you are wrong. I am happy you had that a-ha moment, and I hope you've got the grip down for good. I look forward to seeing / hearing the results. God knows I'm a slow learner and I realize it takes me a lot longer to "get it" than it takes many others.
I made a video for JC Stylles today. A two-minute bit of me doing a couple things so he can see if if got the grip right and make any needed corrections / suggestions. I'm eager (and not a little nervous) to hear what he says.
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Indeed, I never noticed how his thumb sometimes bends back. But it seems he uses the "normal mode" most of the time, even for fairly quick passages. I don't know if he switches consciously or not, but it's an interesting thing. On a similar note, Joe Satriani said that he noticed that a lot of the guitarists he played with (Gilbert, Malmsteen, Vai...) tended to change their hand position when they played fast, so that only the very tip of the pick touched the strings. Originally Posted by ecj
I just finished my daily practice session and I noticed that my thumb tended to bend back, which made the pick parallel to the strings. It must be my former technique trying to creep back in, got to watch out for that one ! In my previous post I didn't mean to say that I got it down completely : I have a lot of work to do but the thing I wanted to point out was that I didn't feel like I was learning some obscure technique, I just kind of understand what this is all about so I don't feel lost. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Last edited by Nabil B; 07-07-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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