Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

dortmundjazzguitar · 09-25-2016, 05:59 AM

stunning blues:

**MarkRhodes** · 09-25-2016, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar

stunning blues:

Thanks for posting this. Hadn't heard it. You're right, it's stunning.

dortmundjazzguitar · 09-25-2016, 11:37 AM

he's on fire on that gig

**Groyniad** · 09-25-2016, 01:04 PM

i used the fm for ages - then got some gb ibanez picks and i've not gone back to the fm

there's less curve on the long edges of the triangle on the gb which means the pick slides off the string a little better - this is easy enough to see and feel - its also something gb has mentioned in talking about this pick and why he likes it

there's less bass than with the fm but better feel and - when the point is still fresh - fantastic articulation

**Groyniad** · 09-29-2016, 11:11 AM

um....

now - after at least a year - i'm back to the FM picks - and WOW

the extra stiffness seems to make a huge difference to me now

last year the less curved sides of the GB pick did it for me - now i need the extra stiffness of the FM

its just great when you get a musical boost from a bit of kit (rather than just from more and more practice!)

**Groyniad** · 10-04-2016, 05:05 AM

can i dive back into an issue we put a lot of energy into a long way back

there were slow motion videos done by our founder (Philco) of gb by his fireside and of the detroit guitarist perry hughes playing (i think) secret love

the point was how much the pick was 'flip flopping'

we distinguished - rightly - between flip flopping and flexing

i've been at this a long time now - and its really starting to pay dividends - very exciting stuff

what i want to say is this:

if you try to hold on quite tightly to the pick and push it through the strings it will be very very very hard to get the sort of rhythmical reliability that you need - without which you're screwed i should say

that seems to me to come with getting the grip so perfect that you can relax the squeeze on the pick and LET IT FLIP FLOP THROUGH THE STRINGS

you can get a very strong sound by holding on a bit tighter and pushing/pulling the pick through - but you can't get the rock solid rhythmical reliability. i.e. you sometimes get a tiny bit stuck on a string and that holds you up for a micro-second and messes up the time - and makes you tense - and it goes round and round.

i'm finding that i'm reaching picking nirvana after about 20 minutes of consistent playing - because through that 20 minutes i'm refining the pick grip until its perfectly balanced between thumb and finger so that i don't have to grip it at all tightly in order to stop it falling out of my fingers. there's also a build up of moisture that seems crucial for getting the grip (you can start by repeatedly licking your finger if you like).

anyway - just wanted to stress this aspect

of course in a way its what Philco was stressing in his very first wonder-post

**Groyniad** · 10-04-2016, 05:13 AM

another aspect of this is that you can't make the micro-adjustments to pick grip that you need willfully or on purpose

you have to let your hand/fingers make these adjustments by themselves IN PLAYING

so you have to get going and play and play and play (play-a-longs - which i haven't used in 25 years of practice - are very very helpful for this)

and let your fingers find the right way to hold the bloody thing

they're amazing

but just trying a grip then playing a couple of scales ain't gonna give your fingers the chance they need to sort it out for you

------

and further to the last post: its the opposite of what you think - that's why its worth stressing

its natural to assume that to get the rhythmical reliability in the phrasing you have to grip quite tight and push that pick through the string - so you can make sure it does the job at the right time

this is false

if you let the pick flip flop it delivers the rhythmical reliability we all so badly need (except those of us who already have it)

----

i wonder what the record for (tragic) consecutive posts is (i included this thought in an edit in case a further post would make me the record holder)

**Philco** · 10-04-2016, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

can i dive back into an issue we put a lot of energy into a long way back

there were slow motion videos done by our founder (Philco) of gb by his fireside and of the detroit guitarist perry hughes playing (i think) secret love

the point was how much the pick was 'flip flopping'

we distinguished - rightly - between flip flopping and flexing

i've been at this a long time now - and its really starting to pay dividends - very exciting stuff

what i want to say is this:

if you try to hold on quite tightly to the pick and push it through the strings it will be very very very hard to get the sort of rhythmical reliability that you need - without which you're screwed i should say

that seems to me to come with getting the grip so perfect that you can relax the squeeze on the pick and LET IT FLIP FLOP THROUGH THE STRINGS

you can get a very strong sound by holding on a bit tighter and pushing/pulling the pick through - but you can't get the rock solid rhythmical reliability. i.e. you sometimes get a tiny bit stuck on a string and that holds you up for a micro-second and messes up the time - and makes you tense - and it goes round and round.

i'm finding that i'm reaching picking nirvana after about 20 minutes of consistent playing - because through that 20 minutes i'm refining the pick grip until its perfectly balanced between thumb and finger so that i don't have to grip it at all tightly in order to stop it falling out of my fingers. there's also a build up of moisture that seems crucial for getting the grip (you can start by repeatedly licking your finger if you like).

anyway - just wanted to stress this aspect

of course in a way its what Philco was stressing in his very first wonder-post

I think you've described it very well.
It takes me about 5 to 10 minutes for my fingers to "find" the grip. Where I can grip a very small corner of the pick and have it stay put and yet flop very nicely about. I agree that the Fender pick will then kind of heat up or something and really bond.
If I stop for a period of time....to watch a video or take a phone call.....it will take a few minutes to get both these stages back.
If I keep playing for an hour or so then I reach a stage of almost bliss....because picking becomes so ridiculously easy and enjoyable.

I like that you described this because I really gave up trying to explain this stage. You have to break through some kind of barrier to get to this spot and it takes a long time......a really long time.

It's easy to come across as some kind of nutter......trying to convince others that you've had yet another breakthrough (after the other hundred really important breakthroughs) and that you really think you've got it THIS time.

I still feel that if I was in the room with someone they would look at the tech from different angles and say "ah.......so THAT'S it !!! It would accelerate the process.

As soon as I saw GB in that vid I slowed down, I knew that the flop was the missing piece of the puzzle. That's how he strums so fast and hits his guitar so hard. Because the pick is like a shock absorber. You simply can't do that if you hold the pick hard.
It's got to move and it WILL move ....even if it is striking the string on an angle.......because it just pivots between your fingers......and then you learn how to control it.

**christianm77** · 10-04-2016, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Philco

I think you've described it very well.
It takes me about 5 to 10 minutes for my fingers to "find" the grip. Where I can grip a very small corner of the pick and have it stay put and yet flop very nicely about. I agree that the Fender pick will then kind of heat up or something and really bond.
If I stop for a period of time....to watch a video or take a phone call.....it will take a few minutes to get both these stages back.
If I keep playing for an hour or so then I reach a stage of almost bliss....because picking becomes so ridiculously easy and enjoyable.

I like that you described this because I really gave up trying to explain this stage. You have to break through some kind of barrier to get to this spot and it takes a long time......a really long time.

It's easy to come across as some kind of nutter......trying to convince others that you've had yet another breakthrough (after the other hundred really important breakthroughs) and that you really think you've got it THIS time.

I still feel that if I was in the room with someone they would look at the tech from different angles and say "ah.......so THAT'S it !!! It would accelerate the process.

As soon as I saw GB in that vid I slowed down, I knew that the flop was the missing piece of the puzzle. That's how he strums so fast and hits his guitar so hard. Because the pick is like a shock absorber. You simply can't do that if you hold the pick hard.
It's got to move and it WILL move ....even if it is striking the string on an angle.......because it just pivots between your fingers......and then you learn how to control it.

I find this is also true for trad grip picking.

BTW - Telling comment about 'finding it.'

Here is what I would advise if you were my student: now you know how it feels, practice the technique in 5-10 minutes broken up with other activities- however long it takes to find it. You need to keep reminding yourself where it is.

At least that's what the Bulletproof Musician Bloke would say. :-)

It won't make it faster to learn, necessarily, but it will give you more solidity.

**Philco** · 10-04-2016, 06:15 AM

This is always worth checking out from time to time.
Keep in mind the GB is using a Fender Medium and look how much it's moving.....those things don't bend or flex.....especially the clown vomit ones like he's using. They are somehow stiffer than the brown ones.

**Philco** · 10-04-2016, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I find this is also true for trad grip picking.

I agree....but when we started this quest some of us went down the "hold it with a vice like grip" path.....because....well because we were advised this was the correct path.

I think a lot of people spent a large amount of time being very frustrated.

I used to go back to a trad grip to strum acoustics or when I when I needed that percussive sound. I don't have to do that any more.

I also think that arching the wrist over the bridge is a furfy. In fact I think it's bollocks.
Why doesn't GB hit open strings?.....because he mutes. He rest the side of his palm on the bridge......sometimes.

I'm back to muting like I did in my shredding days. What a relief not to have to worry about ringing strings.

You can mute/pick flop/hold the pick at a reverse angle/only use your wrist and be totally relaxed.

**christianm77** · 10-04-2016, 08:09 AM

I agree....but when we started this quest some of us went down the "hold it with a vice like grip" path.....because....well because we were advised this was the correct path.

I think a lot of people spent a large amount of time being very frustrated.

I know right? I didn't have a proper guitar teacher ever. My right hand is probably one of my strong suits. There is very little in the way of right hand pick technique - really just heavy crosspicking bluegrass stuff - that intimidates me.

Why? Well I always aimed to be relaxed and free in my movements. I just went with what felt good.

I certainly know many properly trained guitarists who can't pick like me. They look so tense and locked up!

I say this not to big headed. I actually often prefer guitarists who play fewer notes and/or have a legato sound over the chops wizards. I'm not really that interested in picking chops - most of it sounds like machine gun fire and it annoys me when I sound too much that way. IMO technique should be transparent.

But - I think I dodged a bullet on that one. A lot of received wisdom is a bit flawed on guitar technique. It shouldn't take that much work to be able to play fast scales and arpeggios. If it is, you are doing it wrong.

I used to go back to a trad grip to strum acoustics or when I when I needed that percussive sound. I don't have to do that any more.

also think that arching the wrist over the bridge is a furfy. In fact I think it's bollocks.
Why doesn't GB hit open strings?.....because he mutes. He rest the side of his palm on the bridge......sometimes.

How do you get the muting going on? I ended up rejecting GB technique because I couldn't get that happening.

What's a furfy? Is it like a furby?

I arch my wrist over the bridge and it's very comfortable (now) and good for what I do on acoustic. It's not great for other things. I wouldn't describe it as bollocks, but neither would I describe it as necessary or even desirable for amplified playing.

I'm back to muting like I did in my shredding days. What a relief not to have to worry about ringing strings.

You can mute/pick flop/hold the pick at a reverse angle/only use your wrist and be totally relaxed.

Yeah I want to go back to muting for electric playing. I now do trad grip with muting. I find it quite hard to get a sound I like though and the consistency of GB picking. Lots of edge seems to help.

**MarkRhodes** · 10-04-2016, 09:49 AM

I still check in here and enjoy the conversation, though I've switched a small pick (a Jim Dunlop jazztone 204, which is smaller than a Jazz III and has a blunt tip) and have discovered something I still can't explain: when I hold this thing as near to the tip as possible, I get less (unintended) finger contact with the strings when when I had "a healthy third" (as JC Stylles puts it) of a Fender Medium showing. And my thumb is cocked now. (I could do the banana thumb thing, and it was comfortable but it wasn't as clean as I wanted to be.)

Glad this thread continues to roll along.
And I heartily agree with Philco's comment above that many of us started off one way because we thought it was the right way to do it, only to find out it wasn't.

It's a tricky thing, a guitar pick. God bless all who have no trouble with 'em----and also bless those of us who do! ;o)

**destinytot** · 10-22-2016, 05:21 PM

I'm switching back and forth (in different styles and settings) between the small Pro-Plec teardrop with the grip Pasquale Grasso teaches and a Fender Medium using this technique.

'Fine-grain' observation: first finger pad is acting as a padded wall to cushion the flex.

**christianm77** · 10-22-2016, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I'm switching back and forth (in different styles and settings) between the small Pro-Plec teardrop with the grip Pasquale Grasso teaches and a Fender Medium using this technique.

'Fine-grain' observation: first finger pad is acting as a padded wall to cushion the flex.

I've gone back to trad grip. But I miss the pick angle.

Trad grip is a bit more flexible for hybrid picking and stuff.

**Philco** · 10-25-2016, 05:30 AM

This may not be to everyone's taste and it's not exactly Benson Picking BUT it is a great example of a non standard grip (pick NOT on the side of the index but on the face of the index) and the anchored pinky AND the incredible relaxation and loose wrist movement. Hardly any forearm movement at all. Some pick flex as well.

Guitar players CAN play as fast as horn players...........but it seems incredibly difficult with a standard grip.
......did I mention that you don't need overdrive....he he..

He is really into old school as well.......inspiring!

**nunocpinto** · 11-13-2016, 07:22 PM

Mr. Perry Hughes in action; some really cool right hand shots

This second video has a terrible sound, but you can clearly see how he picks.

**rax** · 11-15-2016, 01:34 PM

Hi all

Just wanted to drop a collective "thank you" for all the info in this thread regarding benson technique. I have been amazed like surely lot of fellow guitar players by his playing and since then I tried to copy cat him in some way. So I googled it sometimes and found the Tuck andress info but that was hard to get. And 15 days ago I came across this thread : Whao !

So I am one of the guys "lurking" in the dark

that's my first post, I have been at the picking technique for almost 2 weeks working it everyday gathering info thanks to the nice videos of this topic so THANK YOU for sharing the knowledge even if it's in english

At this point I have focused on the anchoring thing, the wrist movement and the thumb flex as well, trying getting the grip with mirrors, getting the pick "at an angle" wich is the thing I find very different from standard picking and I'm getting at it a bit, slowly but I find new undiscovered areas ...

one thing I don't know others noticed and that got me out fo the wood : => how do you comp with that ???

I can't comp anymore especially straight funk rhythms ... ok for swing cause I prefer comping with the thumb anyway. Comping is very very hard for me, it feels like I am loosing it ... So any advice as always, since the begining, much appreciated.

Thanks a lot. bye bye

**Philco** · 11-16-2016, 06:44 PM

The comping thing is hard............. but I think you need to adjust the grip slightly to have the pick on less angle. It doesn't take much.
Also you can get to a stage where the pick is "swinging as if on a hinge" between your index and thumb.

I don't think you can do any of this with anything thicker than a Fender Medium.

It also is worth remembering that if your left and right hand co ordination has been problematic then this technique may not fix it. It will definitely relax your right hand and stop you from tensing up and may indeed help co ordination somewhat but it's not the magic answer to all of those types of problems.

I did mention in my first post that I could play everything I was playing in that clip before I changed. In that video I'm just running licks I could already play with the old technique.
Changing grips made it easier and more consistent and reliable......and it also opened the door to a whole new world of things I actually couldn't play.

Gentle word of warning: don't get lost in the whole thing and don't neglect to play songs and actually learn about everything jazz.
I really spent way too much time on the whole picking thing.

Good luck on your journey and watch as many clips of GB and his picking hand as you can find.

**AlainJazz** · 11-16-2016, 06:55 PM

In case anyone is interested, i posted this on another thread. It describes my personal variation on the technique.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**rax** · 11-17-2016, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

it's not the magic answer to all of those types of problems.

I did mention in my first post that I could play everything I was playing in that clip before I changed.

Gentle word of warning: don't get lost in the whole thing and don't neglect to play songs and actually learn about everything jazz.
I really spent way too much time on the whole picking thing.

Good luck on your journey and watch as many clips of GB and his picking hand as you can find.

Thanks for these words of wisdom Philco,I'll indeed try not to get lost in the journey and keep on the main path !

**destinytot** · 11-23-2016, 04:11 AM

Posted in Showcase, but re-posting here because of the picking (back to basics on a big guitar, which starts at @4m20):

**edh** · 11-23-2016, 05:25 AM

Excellent singing destinytot & playing. I enjoyed that very much.

**rax** · 11-26-2016, 03:47 AM

hello,

Humble contribution here but I found this video where one can see some sort of Benson picking as I understand it.
There's a lot of downstroke in the playing.

Am I wrong considering it benson-y picking ?

the link :

**destinytot** · 11-27-2016, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I'm switching back and forth (in different styles and settings) between the small Pro-Plec teardrop with the grip Pasquale Grasso teaches and a Fender Medium using this technique.

'Fine-grain' observation: first finger pad is acting as a padded wall to cushion the flex.

I hadn't been able to use this technique with the sort of dynamics I like in single-note lines - but I'm getting it now. I love it. (I'm using the Pro-Plec on nylon, and on steel in Marty Grosz's tuning.)