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there are lots of ways to make sure your pick is always in the right place at the right time to get to the thicker string you're changing to without having to jump over a string that's in the way
slurs of one kind or another are the obvious thing - and i already get the feeling that including slurs so as to get the pick into the right place at the right time (rather than just because the music demands it...!!) will become intuitive quite quickly. and this begins to allay fears i was having that nailing down all these pick movements is almost impossible to do without giving up on improvisation.
i really want to stress that picking problems i thought were all about right hand business have turned out to be all about left hand business. every time things were going wrong with the picking it was because my pick was getting trapped behind the string i was moving from whilst playing descending lines.
because (given appropriate right hand position) there are no equivalent issues with ascending lines - as soon as i make sure that i never require myself to jump over a string when playing descending lines - i remove the only real obstacle in the way of fluid playing at speed.
i've been working on this for a long time - and i can hardly believe how long its taken me to realize that the addition of a single slur in a given phrase, or the use of a different left hand fingering pattern, can remove all the problems i was having with playing the phrase at speed. i really believed for the longest time that it was just how i was holding the pick or a thousand other right-hand/wrist/arm issues.
turns out that very close attention to pick-direction changes the whole picture. once you have all the picking details ironed out with a given phrase or pattern you can then gradually speed it up without encountering any serious problems.
ironing out all the picking details is a whole new dimension of work i've only just come to realize exists. that's a bit of a head-fruck. but on the other hand it means that - with so many other pieces of the puzzle already in place - once i get that dimension of work down i'll finally get the fluidity i've been after for so long.
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03-03-2016 04:41 PM
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I'm coming to that same conclusion. Also, Mark Stefani (JazzOnSix) is friends with Henry Johnson, one of the guys George taught. According to Mark, this style has a lot more to do with the left hand than most people think. I should write to him again and ask if he's talked to Henry more about it recently.
Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Addendum: I did write to Mark Stefani but have not heard back. He stays pretty busy, which is why he's not here more as it is...
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Regarding right hand left hand and muting. What I have personally discovered in my own playing over the last 20 years of playing this style and I believe George does this as well, my left hand is always touching the strings somewhere damping strings I don't want ringing. I've taken to draping my hand across the fingerboard. It's a type of technique I would have frowned upon in my younger days as being sloppy or incorrect. I never consciously decided to do this, it just crept into my playing as a coping mechanism for damping strings.
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You hit on some important things here. Adding slurs is great, and important for musicality, but if we're talking about solving the alternate picking problem (changing strings, not getting stuck behind them, etc), you'll want to address your pick slant. From what you describe, I'm willing to bet you're a downward pick slanter. Someone who is an upward pick slanter (like me) suffers from the opposite of what you deal with. Guys like Steve Morse don't really do either, but that's another thing. This is one of the reasons I always recommend Troy Grady's Masters in Mechanics. I'm not associated with it, but it's killer. I've looked at almost every book, video, dvd, rant, forum post, etc that I could find that deal with picking over the past 20 years. I've changed my angles, styles, mindset, etc. Rationalized that I don't need to be able to alt-pick things after a certain tempo, etc, but I know I'm lying to myself (this may or may not be the case for other people, I'm talking about me). When I found TG's stuff in 2008, I waited on the bastard to finally release it last year, or the year before. Just as I suspected, it really, REALLY answers the right hand question. I sifted through everything he released. Part of me wishes he had just released Masters in Mechanics because so many people get caught up in the cartoonish history lesson from his other series, which I happen to like, too. MiM is very important, in my opinion, in the pedagogy of plectrum guitar, it doesn't matter the style. It helps players like me who couldn't figure this stuff out on their own, not everyone can. No shame in it. Originally Posted by Groyniad
I'm not affiliated with him, I've just been a pissed off practicer for decades not being able to fix my right %*^~ hand! Now that I've found his stuff, I don't have the damn time to shed as much anymore, but I'm at least aware of what needs to be done to fix the problems. I have seen results, but not to the extremes I would if I had more free time.
Edit:
Also, the way you describe solving the problem is actually the way Yngwie did it, he added slurs in certain places, and made sure to set his lines up in the way you describe. Nice 'fix', man!
Also, I know Yngwie causes some people to bristle, but the guy can play the guitar, without question. He solved the problems the guitar presented to him as he worked out how he wanted to sound.Last edited by ghoststrat; 03-11-2016 at 09:34 PM.
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That is so true! The worst part of it is that once you know a certain technique MiM proposes, it seems kind of obvious and you want to kick yourself for not thinking of it. Although at times I've encountered things I had thought about, but never had the self-confidence to decide for myself that they were viable & I would stick to them. Even cross-picking, analyzed in the Steve Morse and Carl Miner clips, which I put off studying for weeks out of dread, was very doable, once understood. You don't have to worry about left hand combinations so much. I find it to be ideal and way simpler than any combination of DWPS and/or UWPS for playing arpeggios if you're not aiming for blistering speeds (not that Morse and Miner are exactly slow). I mean he really has every angle pretty much covered. Something specific about strumming would be nice, although it can be largely inferred from the rest. Now Troy's material didn't and won't transform me into a good player overnight, but at least now one major roadblock is out of the way, and music learning doesn't feel like a hopeless pursuit. Originally Posted by ghoststrat
There was just this belief in the guitar community that "there is no right or wrong way" to pick - well it turns out there is, and Troy nailed it (them)! I've seen plenty of evidence for this on guitar forums, even Barney Kessel talked about this problem in an early 70ies interview, but I think he says something along the lines, not that there is no right or wrong way, but that it will need to be codified one day, as technique has been codified for the classical instruments.Last edited by m_d; 03-15-2016 at 11:22 AM.
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You can get there more than one way, but "there" has to be understood as an effective, efficient approach so that the pick is not an obstacle. It took me a l-o-n-g time to get this anywhere close to right (and to keep it there for long). I still find it a bit maddening when I hear a good player---Frank Vignola is a recent example, and he's not only a great player, he's highly regarded as a teacher too---say, "whatever is comfortable." I get that one's grip must be comfortable but what the "whatever is comfortable" crowd never seemed to get from me was this: "What I'm comfortable doing sucks, okay? THAT is what I want fixed. And 'do whatever is comfortable' is no help at all." In Frank's defense, he knows this. But he says all the great players he knows---and he knows a lot of 'em---pick a little differently. Originally Posted by m_d
I think Troy Grady's work is showing that while they may look that way from a distance, when you zoom in on their picking, they are accomplishing the same thing and it is that accomplishment---in a word, keeping the pick from slowing you down---which is the key, not the comfort you have in how you hold your pick.
That said, the way I hold the pick now is very comfortable. But it's not like the way I used to hold it was Uncomfortable: it produced maddeningly inconsistent results.
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I totally agree with this. The guitar is a two handed instrument and I think that a lot of guitar players bury their head when it comes to the pick hand. It's usually "So and so..(enter name of great and famous guitar player) said that he just lets the pick hand take care of itself.......so that's what I do" Originally Posted by m_d
Great pick technique is not just for shredders. The pick is where your sound begins!
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Agreed, agreed, agreed. Unfortunately, many great players didn't talk much about picking in their "method" books. Does Mickey Baker even mention it? (I think we've all seen some old books for beginners with one picture of a hand holding a pick in a conventional grip and that's the last 'word' on the subject of picking!) Herb Ellis talks about fingering but not much about picking. Joe Pass talked about changing strings with a downstroke but I don't think he went into much more detail about picking. My guess is that these guys assumed who ever was reading their books would already have their basic technique down.) Jimmy Bruno has a book / DVD called "The Art of Picking" but it doesn't talk about holding the pick at all, though he is clear that the motion is to come from the arm, not the wrist, and no part of the right hand / forearm should rest on the guitar. (Though is permissible to rest on the strings.) Originally Posted by Philco
I totally agree with this. The guitar is a two handed instrument and I think that a lot of guitar players bury their head when it comes to the pick hand. It's usually "So and so..(enter name of great and famous guitar player) said that he just lets the pick hand take care of itself.......so that's what I do"
Great pick technique is not just for shredders. The pick is where your sound begins!
Some people "just get it" and never have trouble with this. Boy, but those of us who don't get it---or not as well as we'd like in order to play, say, fast bebop heads---were left to 'sink or swim' until recently.
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Amen to all of that!
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dking
i just read your post and then had a listen to Geo Benson on Affirmation wow that is amazing plus its let me see the way he goes about his technique. Now to get down to learning have a good one
best regards
Robert
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03-31-2016, 04:34 AM #1713destinytot GuestExcellent post! Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
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Originally Posted by Philco
I totally agree with this. The guitar is a two handed instrument and I think that a lot of guitar players bury their head when it comes to the pick hand. It's usually "So and so..(enter name of great and famous guitar player) said that he just lets the pick hand take care of itself.......so that's what I do"
Great pick technique is not just for shredders. The pick is where your sound begins!
i did this for over 20 years - just took NO notice of my right hand (and my right hand was AWFUL)
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can i just say this -
downward vs upward pick slanting
(this was actually the topic of my first ever post on this amazing thread - but let that go)
if you look at gb's right hand - there is NO TRANSITION from downward pick slanting (for ascending lines) to upward pick slanting (for descending lines).
his students (gb's) stress that the style uses downstrokes for all string changes at 'normal' tempos (which include pretty bright tempos for be-boppers). this commits the player to playing downstrokes as 'in strokes' and upstrokes as 'out strokes' (this is what i mean when i use the term 'downward pick slanting').
if we are to keep the right hand position constant (as george does) and we use a downward pick slant because of using downstrokes for all string changes at normal tempos - that means we CANNOT solve the picking problem for descending lines by changing our right hand position and starting to use upward pick slanting.
so we just have to make sure we never get caught behind a thinner string when we're heading down the way to the next fatter string (in descending lines).
so we have to do one of two things
- use slurs
- nail down left hand fingering patterns which mean we are always changing to a lower (fatter) string after having played an upstroke (so the pick is in the right place - not trapped).
i think peter bernstein's right hand looks like he's using upward pick slanting to play his fast descending lines - but gb does not do this AT ALL. the back of his right hand points down to the floor the whole time and there is no big change in its orientation relative to the strings.
i am going with george not peter b. on this one.
i think we're STILL discussing crucial issues on this thread.
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Let me say up front that I could be wrong about what I am about to say but that I have committed to it and it's really working for me:
I don't think many people who are trying this tech are taking this element seriously.
Your pick should be moving A LOT.
• You will discover how much flex is right for you.
• You only need to grip the pick lightly
• The upper right hand corner is a good place to start
• Some plectrums take a while to heat up and tend to slip when first picked up, some stick better than others. FM's take a while but become quite sticky. The Ibanez GB plectrum takes shorter and sticks like glue. A quick lick of the plectrum helps when you start.
• Go back and look at that earlier clip I posted of GB playing in slow motion. If your pick isn't flexing like that then you might want to try experimenting with it.
• Try to figure out HOW and WHY he is doing that ......because he IS doing it.
• Check how much Peter Farell's pick is flexing......for heavens sake, it looks like the guy is "waving a flag"
• You might take a step backwards with your current tech but in only a few days you may realise that the world just changed for you.
• Did I mention that your pick should be flexing a lot?
IMHO.
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Thanks for this. I played around with this with Fender Medium - and yup, it works. Originally Posted by Philco
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Originally Posted by Philco
I agree with everything you said in a sense, but I truly believe that the pick grip and pick itself are both secondary...
I think everyone would agree that Adam Rogers is using Benson Picking or some variation in there of and he uses D'andrea Pro Plec Tear drop picks that don't flex at all.
I believe in my video I demonstrated that I was doing Benson picking or some variation of it with Jazz iii's.
The flappy picks do help give you some of that characteristic "pop" that Benson has in his tone, but I guarantee you if you handed him a Jazz III he'd still be able to pick like nobody's business...
I think it basically comes down to this..
It's important to differentiate between what's important for the characterstic "benson sound" vs. what's important for the technique
Are floppy picks important for the sound? Yes. Are they important for the technique? Not so much....
I'll even argue that the pick grip isn't as important because there are various players that use "Benson Picking" with variations of the grip that are different to his and get a pretty Benson-esque sound...Last edited by JazzMuzak; 03-31-2016 at 09:21 PM.
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Groyniad, I don't think it's true that you can't switch strings descending while ending in the opposite direction...in fact...the lick I played repeatedly in the video I posted a few posts above ends every single descending string switch on a down stroke...I've also transcribed a few things of Benson's that I was able to get up to tempo with pure alternate picking that included descending to lower strings with my pick ending on a downstroke. Originally Posted by Groyniad
I wish I had a better camera to demonstrate this...My "aha" moment with that technique was that I end up swiping up and making contact with the edge or side of my pick and since the pick is at an angle it has less distance to travel to hit the next descending string. As a result, even if you end up in the opposite direction it's not as much of a problem because the pick is traveling less distance...does that make sense?
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Now, I don't personally use this technique because it makes my hand hurt, but when I've experimented with it, I've found that doing descending sweep lines was easy without having to change the orientation of the hand because the pick rotates between the thumb and the index finger, basically adjusting its pickslant on its own without my needing to change my hand position.
Doing a basic five string arpeggio starting on the high e string and descending, if you're holding the pick in the Benson 'style', as you sweep from the E to the B, it rotates between the thumb and forefinger so that it hits all of the strings easily. But I dunno. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
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The grip is important. Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
The grip was the single hardest thing for me to figure out. I thought that my thumb didn't bend enough, I thought my fingers were too long etc WHY couldn't I get my index to bend like GB and JC Styles.
But I kept at it......and at it......and I can now do all that.
For me it's the deal breaker.
Of course, combined with the loose wrist and pinky anchoring and everything else we've talked about ad nausea.
It's the missing piece in the puzzle and IMO it's worth having a look at.
No one has to do any of this. You can play however you want.
But the title of the thread refers to the Benson picking technique and the pick moving is a huge part of it IMO.
I do agree that you would benefit from the other parts of the tech we have discussed but the pick movement is a deal breaker for the bebop thing..............and not everyone wants to play that style so..... I would understand if someone didn't bother with the flop. It's not just about sounding like GB. I have never wanted to sound like him....I just want his tech!
Yes it gives you a bit of the flap sound and you either like that or you don't .....but you can adjust it.
It will also give you some of the staccato thing that I love so much....that wonderful gap between the notes that GB and Martino had down back in the day. I could never figure that out.......until.....
I must have completely broken down my tech at least 4 times in the last 5 years. I haven't learned how to play a single piece of music whilst pursuing this tech.
I think I must be somewhere on the spectrum.
It wasn't until I saw GB's and Peter Farell's pick movement that the penny dropped (and Pat Metheny, Jesse Van Ruler)
But it did require a complete re adjustment.
That happened about a year ago.
Now I don't think about the whole GB tech thing anymore. I just want to play.
But I think this info may help someone.Last edited by Philco; 04-01-2016 at 12:03 AM.
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So, does what Rodney Jones and Dan Wilson do not qualify as "Benson picking?" Originally Posted by Philco
Look at the videos below, both of the aformentioned players get the sound that I think you're talking about and both have varying pick grips than you do. What's the common denominator amongst you three? The wrist motion / hand position..
I'm not suggesting what you're saying regarding the grip doesn't have any merit, I'm just saying that I think for many by mostly focusing on the grip they're looking at the wrong piece of the puzzle.
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Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
They both have lots of pick movement...LOTS.....that's also a common denominator.....can you see the pick moving?
I'm not talking about the sound....and I'm not handing out smiley stamps for genuine Benson pickers cos I don't really know who qualifies and I don't actually care.
I'm saying......try getting the pick to move and see if it helps you.
Dan is a monster player!
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Dan is killer! I should probably get around to taking a lesson with him sooner or later. Originally Posted by Philco
Yeah, you're correct. There is a lot of pick movement, but the grip is different.
I can agree with you that pick movement is essential to the technique, especially to start, but my point really was that you can achieve that with various grips.
Also, to play a little devil's advocate, here's Adam Rogers who uses hard picks, but still uses the technique in my mind.
I'm curious, do you think that you couldn't pick with a hard yet sharp pick? Of course, it might not have the characteristic sound you're talking about or be as staccato, but I'm willing to bet if any of the above players was condemned to a Jazz III for the rest of their career they'd find a way to make it work. I will acknowledge that Adam is the only player I know of in particular that picks this style and doesn't use a "floppy" pick.
Last edited by JazzMuzak; 04-01-2016 at 01:10 AM.
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To be clearer.....I'm not referring to plectrums that bend (like a thin) but the actual movement of the pick back and forth....a slight pivot if you will....between the thumb and index. Players seem to use varying amounts and I think I can see Adam in the clip above doing it as well. His pick is moving......I think Jack Z described his own pick tech as also moving "like a shock absorber". Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
At the end of the Rodney Jones clip he flicks to hanging the pick right out the side and you can hear the sound change and see the clear motion of the flop. At the end he says..."that's a completely different technique"...or something like that....That's fairly extreme and I went from that (and it's a very fast way to play) to a little bit less flop....which is still flopping but has a more solid sound.
We have all talked about so many different aspects of the tech in this thread so perhaps we should shine some light on what has been staring us in the face for so long. Rodney clearly demonstrated it way back then.
I can't prove it but I'd swear that even in the early 60's black and white clips of a very young Benson that he had already discovered this pick flop tech and was working like crazy on it.
I think you could use a thicker plectrum for sure.....but I reckon there is a limit to how thick you could go before you started to sound stiff.
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