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The rest stroke .....for me.....is only used as an upstroke when it's a sweep. Other than that it's just an upstroke.....but keep in mind that if your pick is really flexing then it's never going to get caught on the string. It simply "gives up" and passes over the string. (Julian Lage "kind of" talks about the pick passing through the string in one of his vids)
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The whole flex thing is quite a big deal. To a degree it WILL give you that GB attack sound. You may not want that.
I can't really see how you could leave it to out of this technique and still get the incredible benefits.
You don't have to morph into a tasteless speedster or a Benson clone to get these benefits.....what style you play is up to you.
It's a remarkable way to relax and be accurate. it's a whole alternate way to approach picking.
If you mix this tech with what others are teaching you then I can see some confusion up ahead.
I mean....there are conflicting opinions and different goals.
Perhaps by mixing all the information together you may come up with a solution to the weaknesses you perceive in your own tech.
But if we are talking about discovering the tech that allows GB to control his pick like few others can then the flex component is crucial.
Oh and BTW in my original video and first post in this thread I am NOT using any flex and that's one of the reasons I wanted to remove that video. It's actually misleading.
I really need to update it.Last edited by Philco; 02-21-2016 at 09:39 PM.
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02-21-2016 09:34 PM
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Actually, I'm just thinking about upstrokes period. I know that when we angle the pick, the upstroke and downstroke are made with different edges of the pick. When playing a downstroke, the motion seems clear enough. But the upstroke is not simply the reverse of the downstroke. (It might be if one used a conventional grip and struck the string with the flat face of the pick, but we're not doing that.) Originally Posted by Philco
But really, back to basics: when playing an upstroke (-and to isolate this it is good to play several in a row, say a two-octave major scale with all upstrokes) are you pushing up from the index finger or pulling the thumb back up?
I never thought much about the motion of an upstroke. (As in, what part of the hand is in charge here?) I am suddenly aware that while my downstrokes are very consistent my upstrokes are not and I think this is a problem that can be fixed.
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To be clear, I'm not talking about sweep picking. I'm not talking about striking several strings with a single upstroke. No. I'm talking about the upstroke, period. The 'other half' of an alternately picked pair of notes. In isolating it--just playing upstrokes--I focus on the mechanics of the upstroke (-a single note sounded by the pick executing an upstroke).
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Honestly Mark, I'm never going to play 2 upstrokes in a row and I'm never going to practice that. It really seems like a strange thing to do......and I don't mean to be rude or dis your practice regime but.... I would think of the alternate pick stroke as one motion and not separate them. It's a down up motion. The up without the down is a different ballistic....I mean the down defines the up and in my case the down is most often a rest stroke. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
But to answer your question: I do neither pushing with the index or pulling with the thumb. The pick is being solely driven by the wrist. The wrist is a rolling or shaking motion......the pick just happens to be between my thumb and index fingers being loosely gripped and in part sticking because of surface tension and whatever substance makes pick material stick....and the wrist motion brings it up to the string and the flex of the pick allows it to be dragged across.
The pick is dragged across the string just as a pegged piece of paper is dragged across the spokes of your bike's wheel as you ride merrily down the street. The peg is your index and thumb albeit without too much pressure.
Not a great analogy but I hope you know what I mean.
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I get that analogy but it is hard to get the result when picking. And to be clear, I don't want to play lots of upstrokes in a row because I plan to do it in piece. (I do play lots of downstrokes in a row because melodies and riffs sometimes sound better when played with mostly downstrokes.) Rather, I'm checking to see how my upstrokes are. And they seem inconsistent in a way my downstrokes do not. They tend to have less volume and less punch. And there is a difference between the weight of your hand moving down and when it is coming back up. Gravity is working with you when you go down; you're working against it when you move the other way. Even if it is all in the wrist, there is more resistance against an upstroke than a downstroke---with the downstroke you've got the weight of your hand working with you. Originally Posted by Philco
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Speaking of JC, I got an email from him. (I suspect several others here have received--or will soon receive--the same email.) It seems JC will soon stop selling his tutorial and offering coaching online.
General question:
For those who bought the tutorial (-I did) and did some coaching with JC (-I did that too), would you advise others here to go that route while they still can, or have you found / discovered / come to believe that a better approach to what we call Benson picking is available? (And if so, what is it?)
As they say on radio, "I'll hang up and listen!"
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Just to play devils advocate with Mark...
I can't attest to JC's coaching abilities, but I've seen the video he's been selling and I think it's not worth it at all...
He basically repeats himself for the entirety of the video and it's all really unclear and unfocused. On top of that, I think he focuses on the wrong aspects completely. He focuses on a muscle group and the pick grip while hardly mentioning the motion at all, which is, in my opinion, the most important part.
George benson, Peter Farrell, Dan Wilson, Adan Rogers, Sheryl Bailey, what do they all have in common? They all have various ways of actually gripping the pick, but the motion is the same for all!
On on top of that the "picking exercises" he gives you are disorganized and mediocre at best. I advise anyone considering paying for his tutorial not to waste their money... Maybe he heard about the George Benson music academy and is tying to cash out before it's too late.
I know that was a harsh critique, but that's how I see it... Just one man's opinion.
Also, Mark, not that I'm the expert in all things Benson picking, but I disagree with Philco. If you can't do consistent up strokes it's a problem. What I do agree with is that regardless of how you're holding the pick, the fingers shouldn't move. It's ALL WRIST motion. I think some of you guys are focusing on the wrong aspect. I know I did at first. Motion is much more important than grip or pick type. I can use jazz III's, fender mediums, or anything else.Last edited by JazzMuzak; 02-23-2016 at 05:27 PM.
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One man's opinion is welcome here. Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
As for upstrokes, I am addressing that. Making progress too. I think Philco is right in that if you get the motion right, it is less of a problem and eventually should be none at all. My *motion* was inconsistent and that made me erratic.
By the way, you say motion is the main thing. I am inclined to agree. But I'm not sure---have I seen a video and forgotten?---of how your motion looks. How would you describe it?
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The new Adam Rogers video lessons from MyMusicMasterclass (mentioned in another thread) give a really good look at his picking hand. He anchors the pinky firmly on the pick guard under the bridge pickup (you can see where he's worn through the top layer of the pick guard to the white layer beneath).
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02-23-2016, 07:16 PM #1685destinytot GuestLove listening to Adam Rogers. Wonderful music and musician. I'm going to be streaming those lessons for five days solid during the forthcomingholidays. Originally Posted by David B
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Quite busy with school, but I'll try and get a video up sometime in the near future. I'd prefer to not describe it because one persons "sweeping motion" is another person something else. It's too abstract and not precise enough. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Thanks for the example! Adam breaks my rule slightly and adjusts his fingers while going from high to low at times, but it's still primarily wrist. Originally Posted by David B
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I bought Adam's vid's and got quite a bit out of them.
He has some excellent practice regimes and most importantly [for me]
he emphasizes tone production ....a lot.
He said how his classical guitar studies fed into his electric playing when it comes
to making a sound that you really love and be able to produce that tone consistently.
He's talking RH pick technique here....[not strings picks p/u's amps etc important as they are]
There is one short section where he talks about his picking ....which I'd call a blend of alternate
and economy.
One bugbear I have with economy/sweep picking [and I include what's become known as Benson
picking] is the difficulty in muting overtones from open strings not being played.
Adam has a lot of extra sounds ringing on ...although this is in a very exposed situation...no wash of
cymbals etc etc to cover up but I found it quite irritating.
He must have come habituated to the ringing .....
Anyone else hear this in Rogers' classes or in any other players?
Does it bug you?
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Here's a small update, 2 years after I've got into this technique. I only focused on it for maybe 2 months, when I first discovered that concept. Today I can't really tell if I'm "Benson picking" or not, but I don't really care since I think I found something that works for me. The most important things I got from this is that now I hold my pick with a more natural grip, and also that my right arm is now more relaxed. My technique got better just by adressing these two crucial points.
On a side note, I'm presently working on my hand writing. Since I was a little kid I've always had very bad writing technique and I've decided to adress that. The funny thing is that working on this is very reminiscent of the way I worked on guitar technique. The big principles are the same : don't force your body into awkward positions, and practice slowly.
But back to picking : I'm working with Barry Greene's video lessons and I've noticed that his picking motion comes from his forearm. He also personnally confirmed that through e-mail. I've tried it and it seems that picking fast is easier that way. Did you try that ? Do you know of any other players that use that motion ? As far as I can tell, most players seem to be using wrist motion (I've quickly checked videos of Martino, Benson, Burrell, Metheny to verify that).
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Yes I noticed it. He seems to be oblivious to it. Originally Posted by Moonray
But I've never really heard that ringing on his live gigs although I think RichB pointed out one performance somewhere.
So does it really matter?
I've heard that performance when he does a long solo intro, playing the most difficult across string arps and scales and it sounded very clean.
He also played with OD and seems fine with it.
I don't think I've heard a video of Benson getting the strings ringing. Even on his instructional video I hear no ringing.
My theory.....and it's only just that.....because I can't actually prove anything about this tech.....is that GB actually mutes.
Perhaps Peter Farrell knows for certain?
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Originally Posted by Philco
I don't hear Benson getting that ring either. I suspect Peter Farrell knows for sure---maybe he will join us and say one way or the other. Maybe it's an as-needed mute that at this point is intuitive for George, not something he thinks about it or is even aware of.
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02-26-2016, 06:59 PM #1691destinytot GuestI noticed during Skype lessons that Peter's guitar has what looks like a bright green 'scrunchy' (note colour - not!). Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Sorry for repost, but may be relevant to this thread. Corrections and clarifications on my Benson right hand most welcome.
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FWIW Adam Roger's strings are definitely ringing in his video, but you don't notice this at all in his band recordings. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
EDIT: duh someone else mentions this above.Last edited by christianm77; 02-27-2016 at 07:37 AM.
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02-27-2016, 04:55 PM #1694destinytot Guest
I agree with JazzMuzak that the (picking hand/arm) motion is what counts - that, and coordinated action with the fingers of the leading/fretting hand.
Before starting to write this, I set up for my first set (which starts in about an hour), and I can say that - for me, and ironically (given that I've tied myself in knots over it) - the actual grip is of minor importance compared to the pick's action and contact with the strings.
In fact, when I 'perform' (as in play in public) on my big archtop, I prefer to use a grip that's closer to what Christian demonstrates (in his video comparison of GJ and GB picking and projection) - except I mute with the base of my thumb. Physiology plays its part (big hands, perhaps). My actual pick preference is for a D'Andrea Pro Plec.
The short phone video from last weekend's festival in Guadalajara was an exception - I was using a Fender medium in the The Grip in order to prove the point (to myself), i.e. that it is possible on a larger guitar.
I use my little Ibanez, with a shorter scale than my big Sonntag, to noodle and practise - using The Grip (on a medium Cool Juratex). I'm finding - to my delight - that what I learn not only transfers but sounds better on the bigger guitar.
PS The point about using the Pro Plec is important to me - because, unlike when using a medium (flex and all), I have a better chance of playing what comes from inside me. The video Going Loopy After Hours video is an example of how that sounds.Last edited by destinytot; 02-27-2016 at 08:09 PM. Reason: PS
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Interesting close up from the above Benson clip. The thumb is meant to be behind the index but is not in this pic.
Last edited by Philco; 02-28-2016 at 02:27 AM.
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Did I mention that I heard back from Peter Farrell? He told me that there will be online lessons for those who cannot afford to attend the Institute. He said there would be a "big team" teaching the Benson style, and of course he will be part of it.
George has called Peter "the genius of the fingering" and I would love to gain insight into that.
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Mark, where is this institute? As in what city? I couldn't tell from the info. Or maybe I'm just missing it. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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the left hand fingering thing is critical because - to play with real fluidity - you (absolutely) have to nail down all the pick movements involved in what you're playing so that you can consistently move the pick with the greatest economy of movement from string to string in both directions.
it comes down to avoiding the following picking problem
in descending lines - having to move down to the next string (e.g. from 'b' to 'g' - or 'a' to 'e') right after having played a downstroke
if you've just played a downstroke on the g string and your next note is on the d string your pick is 'behind' the g string and has to get over it so as to make contact with the d string
if you're right hand is in the optimal position (and you're not tilting the whole thing over as a solution to this problem) - you can't make this move smoothly - so it has to be avoided.
you have to make sure - by whatever means - that your pick is already heading in the right direction when it has to make contact with the next (lower) string
interestingly - if your right hand is in the optimal position - there is no issue with ascending lines because you're pick does not get caught 'behind' e.g. the a string when it has to get to the d string.
every phrase you want to be able to play very fast has to pass this very strict test for smooth picking - and this imposes very strict constraints on left hand fingering (and slurring etc.)
getting this right helps you develop the very intimate relation with the strings (you're sort of pushing/pulling on them with the pick the whole time) that is the essence of the technique. it enables you to have the pick in contact with the strings the whole time without generating glitches and hiccups in the movement of the right hand.
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I have no idea! I was wondering the same thing. I went to the Institute's page and sent an email asking four questions: Originally Posted by setemupjoe
1) where is the facility? 2) will online courses be available? 3) will books for the courses be available (as with Berklee books) 4) is it open yet?
I'll let you know what I hear back.
Re-reading Peter Farrell's email, I think the online side (-courses) is a couple months away. So really, I know the answer to question 2): there will be online courses. But I hope the reply from the Institute provides more details about them and also the (projected) start date.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
About that. I've been thinking of this in relation to the "three-finger technique" thread. How does one orient the left hand to the guitar?
My understanding (-an often dodgy thing) is that the classical approach wants the palm to face the ceiling when one is preparing to play; the non-classical approach (which may have never given the matter any thought) has the palm facing the bridge.
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