Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

**setemupjoe** · 11-30-2015, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I notice that, in Sheryl's grip, her thumb seems to go over the forefinger. Benson's sometimes appears to, too. I'd love to read thoughts on this.
EDIT And I'm wondering whether this might be because she has pick on the side - rather than on the pad - of her index finger.

I can't get a great look at her thumb placement given that I'm looking at it on my phone. Personally I use the pad of my forefinger and I try and keep the fingers from hogging too much of the pick. I try and keep them holding the top corner of the pick but depending on what's going on I might find myself holding more of the pick and my thumb will slide further across the pick.

**MarkRhodes** · 11-30-2015, 04:24 PM

Here's a split screen look at Sheryl playing her "Micro-Cosmic bebop line"---you can't see the pick at all! But her thumb is "riding high" on the index.(Not a critique; an observation.) She seems to play from her elbow. Her pinky touches the pick plate but doesn't seem anchored. (Again, not judging, just looking.)

(She plays the lick three times at tempo, then breaks it down phrase by phrase.)

**christianm77** · 11-30-2015, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

He's not anchoring using his pinky. Instead it looks like he is anchoring with the palm on the bridge. That makes for a very different hand position.

I don't think he is anchoring at all. Anchoring is completely anathema in GJ circles. You will get burned at the stake, for sure.

Also you will have trouble projecting acoustically.

You are permitted to let your fingers drape over the top of the instrument, but under no circumstances fix anything on the instrument.

Have a look at this very cool West African/Django fusion thing with Giniaux. No anchoring there.

Such an interesting musician BTW, I must check out more of his stuff...

Playing around with the Benson grip I haven't really bothered anchoring at all. Is this a requisite part of the approach?

**setemupjoe** · 11-30-2015, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Just got home from work, determined to get this together.

No sooner did I take off my coat than I picked up the Ibanez, turned on the amp and put on a play-along to record some exaggerated edge-picked noodling - over changes I'm relatively comfortable with, and using a Fender Medium.

I feel confident that I can build on this, and I'm thinking of investing in a few Skype lessons with Peter Farrell.

You have some really nice lines and a good relaxed feel. You get stuck in places where you seem unsure where you are going and then you get yourself back on track. From what I can hear you need to keep building your technique with the picking style and continue pushing through those moments when your solos stall.
I used a Bill Bay book of right hand exercises to help build up my strength and endurance. I'm not sure what right hand exercises you may be doing.
Left hand I would make sure you can play over any changes in any position on the neck. Otherwise you'll have these little problem areas that you're always trying to avoid when soloing.
Good work though. I think you're on the right path.

**setemupjoe** · 11-30-2015, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I don't think he is anchoring at all. Anchoring is completely anathema in GJ circles. You will get burned at the stake, for sure.

Also you will have trouble projecting acoustically.

You are permitted to let your fingers drape over the top of the instrument, but under no circumstances fix anything on the instrument.

Have a look at this very cool West African/Django fusion thing with Giniaux. No anchoring there.

Such an interesting musician BTW, I must check out more of his stuff...

Playing around with the Benson grip I haven't really bothered anchoring at all. Is this a requisite part of the approach?

I'm sure you're right. I couldn't tell from the video if he was anchoring or not.
The Benson technique does seem to always have some connection with the pinky and the pick guard. For me the hand sits on the pick guard under the strings similar to Sheryl Bailey. My palm tends to point up to the ceiling. Others have their hand raised over the strings more with their palm facing into the body of the guitar. The pinky touching or resting on the pick guard does seem to be a common thread though.

destinytot · 11-30-2015, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

You have some really nice lines and a good relaxed feel. You get stuck in places where you seem unsure where you are going and then you get yourself back on track. From what I can hear you need to keep building your technique with the picking style and continue pushing through those moments when your solos stall.
I used a Bill Bay book of right hand exercises to help build up my strength and endurance. I'm not sure what right hand exercises you may be doing.
Left hand I would make sure you can play over any changes in any position on the neck. Otherwise you'll have these little problem areas that you're always trying to avoid when soloing.
Good work though. I think you're on the right path.

Thanks very much indeed for this feedback, Mark!

The only exercise I do regularly is trying to play lines as I hear them, slowing down or stopping to sort out any fingering problems as I go along.

And I really enjoy doing that because it never feels like it's a chore, so I think perhaps a good place for me to start would be to find parallel/alternative fingerings each time I stumble - a kind of 'belt-and-braces' approach - and practise picking with confidence and authority.

destinytot · 12-01-2015, 10:12 AM

I'm a firm believer in self-reliance, including autonomous learning through self-directed study. For me, that involves knowing when to seek help - which comes as a blessing when where you're struggling - and also knowing where to find it.

I'm really looking forward to getting my teeth into the resources at Richie Zellon's on-line bebop guitar course, but if nunocpinto hadn't posted the clip below, I doubt I'd be as excited as I am now - getting ready to receive my first Skype lesson from Peter Farrell:

destinytot · 12-01-2015, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I'm finding that 'thumb-pad over forefinger' feels comfortable and sounds great, but I find that involves too much movement - and too large a pick trajectory - for fast/double-time to be maintained with accuracy for more than an occasional burst.

I've been looking at this, and I've changed my mind.

As long as the pick is firmly clamped (allowing for the play/flex that makes for a characteristic sound that I - for one - really like), I now believe that thumb pad over forefinger needn't affect speed.

I rather think that the interplay between string tension and pick thickness is a more important consideration if the 'slicing' motion of edge-picking is executed at an exaggerated angle (close to 90º).

Elsewhere on the forum, I've seen this idea expressed as a kind of axiom: 'Heavy strings, light pick; light strings, heavy pick'. (EDIT: I think it may have been attributed to GB.)

I suspect it will be may be much easier for me to go back to Fender Thins and pick at a hard angle because I've got .014s on my Ibanez. As soon as I get home tonight, I'm going to try it out with an amp.

**christianm77** · 12-01-2015, 09:18 PM

So I played out today for the first time using only Benson style picking (in so much as I understand it....)

I really dig it. I love the sound it gives (I'm using it in quite a legato Adam Rogers sort of way) - I seem to be able to get a lot of dynamic control and speed etc is not an issue.

I start to understand why people elsewhere have called this an up stroke oriented technique, even though you are favouring downstrokes in general - the up strokes have a very specific feel and snap about them, don't they?

destinytot · 12-04-2015, 09:17 AM

Commenting about getting tone with this technique - as a follow up to my previous observations, and having just played in a duo (with a brilliant trumpet player) at a small private event and taken advantage of that opportunity to test out my little breakthrough re. three-finger fretting.

It worked fine live - though I'm going to need to do it a lot so that it becomes ingrained, automatic and consistent. But the lines flowed yesterday - nothing a 'lightning speed', but they had better bounce and didn't break up at all. (Progress - sniff - "Mmm - them's nice roses!") Mobile phones were out in force, so I hope to be able to post video.

Moreover, I was able to make two observations about getting tone. Firstly, that only in the act of playing lines am I able to make the kind of fine picking adjustments that produce the fullest tone. I believe this technique comes into its own by allowing good tone to be coaxed out 'mid-flow'; my learning objective with Peter Farrell is to be able to consistently play my lines at double their current speed. So, hopefully, this picking is a stepping-stone or a springboard for me in terms of self-expression; I think three-finger fretting will, too - 'slurring' seems like a natural progression (whereas I usually pick every note).

Secondly, that the amp settings which seem (to my ears) to work best - live - for this picking are: (starting with guitar volume and tone full/open, and amp volume quite low) treble at zero, mids almost full (9 out of 10), bass about three quarters. Then set amp volume, rolling off bass if needed (I have my amp at about waist height), and roll back guitar volume and tone.

Just my two cents, but it may help others who - like me - are struggling to find a path.

**Groyniad** · 12-04-2015, 06:21 PM

here's my latest breakthrough thingy:

when you play with the thumb - like when you play with the fingers in a classical style - you get a distinctive response from the string and the top of the guitar.

wes' sound is built on this response. i've only heard it reliably before using the thumb quite assertively on an L5. it is decidedly not a thunk - but its the carved top equivalent perhaps.

i think the important thing about the benson picking technique is that it stays as close as possible to wes' thumb technique - except adding the facility and clarity you get from a pick. this is why the downstroke thing is so important (See above).

but i've only just started getting this response from the strings and top whilst using the pick a la benson. it thickens up the sound very nicely - its fantastic what it does both for the bottom and for the top ends of the range. it really is like a different voice starts coming out of the guitar - and it feels different too.

i've started to get this sound out of the guitar using the picking method by concentrating on keeping the pick in contact with the strings as much as possible. so this has a lot to do with rest strokes - and constantly pressing down onto or pulling back up off the strings. when you rest the pick on a string and then push through it, you can get the guitar to make this sound - just the way you can when you rest your thumb on a string and push through it. (the importance of the pick is really to give you a strong upstroke version of the down-pushing thumb movement that wes used.)

its easiest to hear the very wes-like sound if you get the amp working really well - and the easiest way i know to do this is to use headphones (!). you can really hear the effect very clearly with headphones plugged into your pre-amp thingy.

i think getting this sound out of the guitar is probably crucial to getting enough muscle into each note to make it sound clearly in a fast line. its about getting as far away from 'plucking' the string as possible.

incidentally - i think its also about getting a more horn-like - thicker - sound out of the guitar. you aren't letting the string ring (so it sounds stringy and metallic) - you're pushing or pulling the sound out of it. so you get more of a horn sound than a guitar sound out of the guitar.

destinytot · 12-04-2015, 07:47 PM

My Sonntag's in for a service. It usually gets picked up, but I had to deliver it today (which meant a train journey to the back of beyond and a long walk in cold and near darkness) - and I'm so glad I did...

I've just spent three hours trying out big heavy valve amps. WOW! Does anyone here use one?

**Groyniad** · 12-05-2015, 08:34 AM

i had a 15'' rivera jazz suprema for a year or so.

maybe it wasn't the best valve set up - but when i heard a clarus with a redstone audio cab that was the end of my big valve amp experiment. next up for me is a new evans i think.

nice lines on another you mike!

**Groyniad** · 12-05-2015, 08:38 AM

my thing today is chasing after the benson long finger curl.

the long finger curl is the most easily visible feature of the technique. the long finger is the long finger next to your index finger...(!)

i have to make some very minor adjustments in arm angle and pick grip in order to get the long finger to start curling up in the characteristic benson manner. feels a bit more like holding a pen when this starts to happen.

its not important in itself of course - but i do think that if you're getting that characteristic up-curling long finger it probably means the rest of the grip/arm position etc. is very close to benson's. its a very distinctive thing - never happens in any other context.

**Groyniad** · 12-05-2015, 09:08 AM

random benson-love post

oh my god its amazing to see this guy at it - he so rarely plays his real shit

from 7:42 to the end. i'm thinking of the 'chord solo' - though what he does transcends the chords/melody distinction man.

i just love the last bit where he says

'i guess that's all part of the george benson concept - i don't know'

he doesn't know? but he IS gb.

and no he doesn't know - which is amazing and great.

i think these videos are jazz-gold - so rare to find such totally uncondescending teaching from a master. i love the way he keeps developing things his father told him. 'chromatics' - 'cantor changes'.

wonderful to be in such intimate contact with a true musical genius.

**Groyniad** · 12-05-2015, 09:19 AM

and further to previous about getting (most) of the wes thumb-tone using the benson picking method

you need to pick a little closer to the bridge than you might normally. so not the neck side of the neck pickup. not quite over the neck pickup even - but a tad behind the neck pickup. the guitar 'pops' (hate to introduce this term - don't like it much) more easily if you pick where the string is a bit more taught (i.e. nearer the bridge).

and you need the amp to be turned down a bit - so you can push down or up through the string keeping contact with it as much as possible, with the requisite firmness. if you're set up too loud with the amp/guitar you will be too ginger or gentle with the strings. this is true when you play near the bottom or near the top of the range - i tend to chicken out of the picking (because it will be too boomy or too cutting) - but if you use this method the notes you produce are tighter and fuller - so you don't have to back out of the very low and very high notes to keep them 'in line'.

notice how 'hard' he plays in the teaching video...

destinytot · 12-05-2015, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

i had a 15'' rivera jazz suprema for a year or so.

maybe it wasn't the best valve set up - but when i heard a clarus with a redstone audio cab that was the end of my big valve amp experiment. next up for me is a new evans i think.

nice lines on another you mike!

Thanks, man.

That Clarus + Redstone sounds like an amazing combination. Rodney Jones's name leapt out at me from this review page Redstone Audio

I really enjoyed testing out half a dozen valve amps - LOUD

- but what I've come away with (in addition to some of these http://www.amazon.com/Cool-Picks-Jur.../dp/B0052NPIOI - great point, release and non-slip) is a greater appreciation of the great tone of with my little Evans RE200. It's easy to carry, and it's also easy to dial in a great live sound - and when it's run through a Polytone, it's gets much louder and dirtier.

I definitely prefer a combo, but a heavy valve amp is out of the question for gigs. (I'm getting an AER Compact 60 at the end of the month - I'd rather get a portable valve amp but the 6.5kg AER is not only portable but good for both vocals and guitar, as well as having good connectivity.)

But what I heard last night was the sound in my head - not 'created' by me but remembered. I think the studio is where the valve amp makes a difference - the valve amp, the mics, and the engineer. (And I think pedals are the thin edge of the wedge.) I don't know how long transistor (?) or solid-state (?) amps have been around, but - without checking (never was one for pub quizzes and their like) - I bet that 'remembered' (ideal?) 'jazz' guitar tone pre-dates them.

destinytot · 12-05-2015, 11:30 AM

My thing today has been playing with the pinky on my fretting hand immobilised (bound to my third), making me fret with three fingers. I'm training myself by observing how I play intervals and move around. I've noticed slurs and pull-offs (but no hammer-ons). And I've been able to pick out (tentatively) any melody or line I can hear.

destinytot · 12-05-2015, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

i've started to get this sound out of the guitar using the picking method by concentrating on keeping the pick in contact with the strings as much as possible. so this has a lot to do with rest strokes - and constantly pressing down onto or pulling back up off the strings. when you rest the pick on a string and then push through it, you can get the guitar to make this sound - just the way you can when you rest your thumb on a string and push through it. (the importance of the pick is really to give you a strong upstroke version of the down-pushing thumb movement that wes used.)

Tai Chi (sorry) - push hands, extend chi. Contact, momentary relaxation, action*, repeat.

*'Pop'!

destinytot · 12-06-2015, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

random benson-love post

oh my god its amazing to see this guy at it - he so rarely plays his real shit

from 7:42 to the end. i'm thinking of the 'chord solo' - though what he does transcends the chords/melody distinction man.

Transcends 'horn lines' too - obvious, perhaps, but surely not accidental/by chance. And so effective.

(For me, the effect is sheer elation - and I don't think that's accidental/by chance, either. I admire this choice.)

And I love how, in the chord-solo part of that clip, he starts with a phrase from Basie's Bag.

There are great shots of him playing Basie's Bag in the clip below. It follows Green Dolphin Street and a short interview.

(Hearing the acoustic archtop rhythm guitar - that 'engine' - behind George Benson, I'm looking forward even more to having some fun with a looper.)

**setemupjoe** · 12-08-2015, 08:15 PM

This is something of interest to me regarding this technique.

For 30 years I played a Gibson Super V but about 4 years ago I retired that guitar and bought a Heritage Super Eagle to be my everyday workhorse guitar.

One difference that I noticed between the two guitars was the height of the pickguard above the body. As I rest my hand on the pickguard having it lower (it's 1/4" lower than the Gibson) really changed the angle of my picking hand.

Over these last few years I've gotten used to it but I recently pulled out my Gibson and played it for a while and realized how much more comfortable I felt with the pickguard higher. My pick swept across the strings easier.

So, long story short, I've bought myself a super 400 pickguard (in the mail as I write this) and plan to replace the heritage pickguard with the new one that I will have set to the height that I feel more comfortable with.

Has anyone else had an issue with this?

**JazzMuzak** · 12-11-2015, 12:05 AM

Setemupjoe, I bought a 175cc not too long ago and I had a similar problem. The pickguard was lower than on my previous guitar and a little unstable, so I cut some foam and a small piece of heat shrink tubing. I used the heat shrink tubing as a spacer to increase the height of the pickguard and left the foam underneath the part of the pickguard that my fingers rest on in order to stop it from moving down when I anchored on it.

**Groyniad** · 12-11-2015, 05:54 AM

i just got a gb10 - and the pick guard is higher than on my L5 - and it certainly feels more friendly to the technique

**setemupjoe** · 12-11-2015, 10:38 AM

It's funny how something so small can make a difference. Gibson sit their pickguard on top of the pickup mount. Heritage cut around the pickup mount entirely and have the pickguard almost flush with the guitar body. I haven't played a GB10 in years but I'm curious now how the pickguards are mounted.

**Groyniad** · 12-11-2015, 01:00 PM

looking at the heritage pic. the pick guard is much much lower than on the L5

the gb10 has a very clever pick guard thing going on - one of the three funny looking screws in the pick guard controls the height of the back end of the pick guard (and so of the bridge pickup which is attached to it.) there's a brace onto the rim - just like the traditional gibson thing - and a simple screw in a tube at the top of the pick guard. the pick guard is about .25cm closer to the string height than on the gibson.

i'm amazed you could cope with the heritage with the pick guard as low as that - i think changing it is a very good idea.