Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[destinytot]

Do you mean like, say in C, CEG, DFA, EGB, FAC and then whatever your target tone is?

That would be classic 'bop era stuff. Carol Kaye talks about using the "chordal scale" (In G, G Maj7, Amin7, Bmin7, CMajj7, D7, Emin7, F#min7b5) as a slide rule. For example, if you're playing over a D minor, you can treat it as a ii chord in C (-regardless of what key the song is presently in) and use the Emin F, G, Amin triads to make a nice line).

That's pretty much what I meant, but I think four-note groupings are central to Benson's sound - especially when he's 'flying', and including when he's using triplets. (I'd need to transcribe to sure, but I suspect this applies to triads.)

I think he 'digs in' to the first and third beats - there's never any doubt where 'one' is.

Regarding those arpeggios, I hear the first of each group as being prominent: even eights 1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4 or triplets 1 2-3-4, 2 2-3-4.

And I think he chooses fingering on the basis of his articulation of eighth notes.

I've been noodling on the guitar while writing this, and I was reminded of a something you recently asked (rhetorically, and in a context that made perfect sense): "Why anyone would want to play a major third on one string?"

Well, I've just noticed that doing a smooth downward 'string-sweep' to articulate the notes of the ascending triplet E-G-B in a CMaj7 arpeggio does call for a major third if you start from C on the sixth string (a good 'launching point'), but not if you alternate pick and change strings when going from the C to the E.

I wish I could play a dazzling demonstration of that, but that's kind of the point - speed is a function of efficient coordination and practice.

Even so, I'd like to see more videos here. I'm happy to have a go at demonstrating what I've tried to express.

[destinytot]

Thanks, Mark! I'll print the chart and put it on the music stand.

+1

[Nabil B]

It's a mix of both. These shapes give a length of line and I can get that fast bluesy triplet over the 5, b5, 4 and once you practice sliding one finger over those notes it becomes very easy. However the traditional box shapes also have their purpose and are equally important.

In which situations do the traditional shapes come in handy when you can use small clusters that are easier to play and cover greater range (I'm only talking about soloing) ?

[MarkRhodes]

I've been noodling on the guitar while writing this, and I was reminded of a something you recently asked (rhetorically, and in a context that made perfect sense): "Why anyone would want to play a major third on one string?"

Well, I've just noticed that doing a smooth downward 'string-sweep' to articulate the notes of the ascending triplet E-G-B in a CMaj7 arpeggio does call for a major third if you start from C on the sixth string (a good 'launching point'), but not if you alternate pick and change strings when going from the C to the E.

Well, there are times I play a major third on a single string. Jimmy Bruno has an exercise in "The Art of Picking" that starts a C Maj 7 arp by playing the first 3 notes on the low E (frets 8, 12, and 15), so it's not that I'm averse to doing it but it's certainly not my "default". I just don't think that playing the E on the 7th fret of the A string with a continuation of the downstroke that played the C on the low E is at all complicated. Also, the lower on the neck you are, the wider that major third stretch is. From C to E on the low E is not a big deal, but from F (near the nut) to A on the low E is more than some hands can comfortably manage, so it may be undesireable. If I'm playing a G augmented pattern and know I want the D# at the sixth fret of the A string, I'll play the B on the low E after playing the G, which is a major third stretch but it's smoother for me than playing the B on the A string and the D# also on the A. (It is of course possible to play the G on the low E, the B on the A and the D# on the A string---that's convenient for running the pattern up the neck every two frets, ascending on one group of three and descending on the next.)

I appreciate what Mark Cally has done with the blues scale shapes. Reminds me of diminished runs, which lay out so nicely on the guitar. Lots of shifts but the fingering stays the same (-or close to it), so you can really zip around without much effort.

[Pocket Player]

Loving these patterns !! and the fingerings these are so cool !

[MarkRhodes]

You know, that E blues pattern (E, G, A, Bb, B, D) is very close to an E diminished arpeggio (E G Bb D).

[setemupjoe]

You know, that E blues pattern (E, G, A, Bb, B, D) is very close to an E diminished arpeggio (E G Bb D).

E dim is actually E G Bb Db. But I see your point.

[MarkRhodes]

E dim is actually E G Bb Db. But I see your point.

Yes, you're right. Sorry about that. I've been working on a long G diminished pattern from Carol Kaye's "Jazz Guitar" and when I played your blues pattern I thought, "Hey, that's in the same ballpark." But yes, it's a Db, not a D. (I play both, as with leading tones, the G diminished is Gb G, A, Bb, C, Db, Eb, E.)

[AlainJazz]

I can't play at all with the guitar so low. I've tried many times but it just feels like my picking hand has been submerged in cement.

[destinytot]

I can't play at all with the guitar so low. I've tried many times but it just feels like my picking hand has been submerged in cement.

It was definitely too high before; I feel that's because I committed too soon to new concepts, trying to run before I could walk - following tips, advice and videos blindly and without thinking about my own circumstances (physiology, instrument, use/application).

It's not that I've been lazy or unmotivated, it's about using practice time wisely. It's been said before - focus on the minutiae.

My confidence had been undermined by fears that my 18" archtop may not be suitable for Benson picking - until I saw Benson himself using one.

And, of course, I'd watched that - and other - videos several times without thinking making a connection between picking and the size of guitar's body. I've spent part of this morning watching how Ed Cherry's technique has evolved. I see a difference marked by a Benson-like grip from 1988 - I love his guitar playing today.

Having tried it on two gigs, there were positive aspects to experience of having the guitar hang low, aspects which I hope to maintain. For example, standing, I sang and played lines with a greater feeling of freedom in my upper torso and the guitar anchored on my hip. Sitting, the back was completely free and the body inclined towards me*; the tone was/is wonderful and I could pick and choose shapes to play off while looking at the neck.

But last night I realised that I'd overshot the mark.

After the place had cleared, I raised the strap a bit and felt better (I wouldn't have been able to sleep otherwise), but I'm going to look even more closely at this issue.

inclined towards me* I thought it might have been the chair, but I've just realised that when I tried it at home I only inclined it a little (kind of like Wes, which is a feeling I want to keep). But I'd been watching acoustic archtop master Steve Jordan closely - I think I was trying to Benson-pick in this position.

[AlainJazz]

Thanks for your insight destiny. Very interesting. It's funny how such little things can make such a big difference in how you feel while playing.

[Groyniad]

First of all, let me say this thread is one of the best resource available regarding Benson picking technique (and picking technique in general), so thanks to all who contributed!

After reading Tuck Andress article and the posts of this thread, I assume a beginner with Benson method should start with the grossest muscles (shoulder bicep and forearm) and then wrist motion and then eventually fingers. Someone also said that arm motion should always be used in the fastest passages, although many players achieved to play very fast with wrist motion (which it's the "shake" movement in JC tutorial) or even thumb/first finger motion (Henry Johnson seems to use that). However the debate about elbow/wrist motion has a long story also - and especially - in traditional picking and it's not my intention to retrace it here.

Right now I've been using Benson picking for 6-7 months and I'm trying to train arm motion correctly. However it's still not completely clear to me which one is the correct arm motion with Benson grip/hand placement.
In fact, just like with wrist motion, the Benson method allows the player to use two very different type of arm motion: the traditional one, which is an up and down movement (north/south with north as the head of the player and south as his feet) and a totally new one, similar to oscillation in wrist motion, where the pick moves almost in the same direction of the string (so the forearm doesn't move north/south but east/west).
I've also noticed that with traditional up/down arm motion I don't anchor much with the pinky, because the elbow is the fulcrum and to get the pick in motion I I change the angle between humerus and forearm (usually the pinky slides gently along the pickguard), whereas if I use the east/west arm motion I have the anchored pinky as a fulcrum, and my whole arm is moving from the shoulder (the angle between humerus and forearm doesn't change at all).

It's very difficult to see what Benson and other Benson pickers are really doing when playing fast, because movements are so small. Benson sure moves the arm, but how? Does the pick moves east/west in the same direction of the strings or north/south in the traditional way?
I'm asking these questions because I personally find very difficult to switch from one arm movement to the other. Very different from what I feel playing with wrist motion, where I can easily switch from rotation to oscillation.
Also,up/down arm motion with Benson grip seems to me a bit uncomfortable whereas east/west arm motion sounds better, and louder if needed (the pick gets the same tone as oscillation) but I can't play so fast (maybe it's just because I'm using new muscles, and I have to train them more).

In the 60s Newport Festival video you can clearly see Benson anchoring firmly and moving the arm towards the headstock of the guitar, but it's difficult to say if he does that just for accenting some notes (along with rest stroke technique and changing picking angle for more "slanting" and in-stroke out-stroke technique). In other videos he seems to "float" more with his hand, especially in very fast playing, using a more traditional up/down arm motion (which results in anchoring at the elbow more than at the pinky…you can see his curled fingers gently sliding along the pickguard in an up and down motion).

So, which arm motion would you guys recommend let's say in a very simple one-string tremolo exercise, for getting the right control/speed with Benson picking and training the right muscles from the start?

Thank you all!

there are two forms the technique takes, wrist-based and arm-based, the wrist-based form is for everything but fast passages and much the more important. nunocpinto - reporting on help received from benson's most prominent recent student - set out the essentials some pages back. it was not until i understood that every string change (in both directions at everything but very bright tempos) is a down stroke rest stroke and upstrokes are OUTstroke free strokes that the technique really made itself known to me properly.

i recommend practicing the normal tempo form of the technique for a long time before complicating things by trying to master the fast tempo form. you have to get used to the feel of this predominantly downstroke rest stroke style (very visible on the newport clip btw) - before you're ready to modify it so as to make it work for fast tempos.

the fast form substitutes arm movement for wrist movement - this makes all the difference when it comes to speed - and it does not involve any rules about downstrokes rest strokes for string changes (though you may well find yourself doing more downs than ups...).

the practice i find effective involves using scales with added notes to keep them 'in time' - and then alternating single and double time passages so as to practice the transition from wrist-based (downstroke/rest stroke) to arm-based (free stroke) picking. i also like to practice passages which require sharp transitions back and forth between single note lines and strummed chords. a leading feature of all these technique forms (normal tempo/fast tempo and strummed chords) is that they all work best initially at least with quite a strong pinky-anchor. the temptation to lift the hand for chords should be resisted i think (at least to start with).

[Mark78_blues]

Thanks for your clarification! So, in the arm based picking do you find yourself to move the forearm in the same direction of the string? (Toward the neck in the downstroke and toward the bridge in the upstroke) Or you just rotate the forearm up and down, like in the standard style?

[destinytot]

Thanks for your clarification! So, in the arm based picking do you find yourself to move the forearm in the same direction of the string? (Toward the neck in the downstroke and toward the bridge in the upstroke) Or you just rotate the forearm up and down, like in the standard style?

I understand rotation as a different motion to up and down, but I'm glad you've asked about arm-based picking - I'm hopeful of some clarification on precisely that concept.

EDIT Speculating, I think of rotation as harnessing the power of torque, and up-and-down as involving a 'hinge' - and if the latter is not the wrist, it would be the elbow (which sounds like a bad idea).

EDIT2 Elbow does makes sense - time to look into 'tracking'.

[Groyniad]

Thanks for your clarification! So, in the arm based picking do you find yourself to move the forearm in the same direction of the string? (Toward the neck in the downstroke and toward the bridge in the upstroke) Or you just rotate the forearm up and down, like in the standard style?

the movements are so many, small and various that its hard to talk about them without generating confusions...

i think:

the wrist-based movement is a kind of rotation
the elbow-based movement is not a kind of rotation but a very quick, quite rigid, up-down (very small movements engaging the string only with the very tip of the pick)

the down-stroke-rest-stroke (which is the backbone of the technique) feels like its going IN towards the body of the guitar and the up-stroke-free-stroke feels like its going out away from the body of the guitar

and the arm based fast movement doesn't seem to me to move in the way you specify, but if anything, the opposite (but that could be just verbal confusion between us)

[Groyniad]

the point of stressing the difference between the wrist based and the arm based dimensions of this technique is that its easy to practice at bright-ish tempos the whole time and fall between the two of them - with very negative effects.

try playing the wrist based passages nice and easy (i like to swing the 8ths heavily) - and set yourself to play short little arm based passages at very very high speed.

and the stuff about buzzing and humming and oscillating has heuristic value only - it may help trip you into the technique, but it doesn't really describe the technique when its up and running very well. (when you start to get it, it feels slower and more relaxed than these words imply.)

people are negative about arm-based picking for very good reason (it sounds mechanical and stiff etc. etc.) - the benson thing gives it a place, but only a very tightly circumscribed place, in the full right hand picture.

[destinytot]

try playing the wrist based passages nice and easy (i like to swing the 8ths heavily)

That's precisely what has led me here - hours of improvised lines and chord melody, with strategically-placed mirrors.

I find it much easier on a small-bodied guitar, but I've spent all morning 'training' myself on my 18" archtop. (Mind you, morning lasts until 2pm.)

and the stuff about buzzing and humming and oscillating has heuristic value only

Helpful onomatopoeia (to complement the rushing of the waterfall I visit to catch information in a thimble).
A great complement, too, to the part on 'elbow' @3m30s in Troy Grady's Four Essential Motion Mechanics for Picking.

I'm beginning to recognise this (very fine) motion of Benson's arm when it occurs.

Regarding imagery, I find 'weightless' more helpful than 'anchoring', and 'floating' more so than 'raised'; playing becomes 'riding the breath'.

[ecj]

Anyone have a vid of this arm motion thing? I'm not seeing it. I mean, his arm moves faster in faster passages to change strings, but I'm not seeing the fundamental movement change.

I've found that I can actually pick faster the less total motion I move. I tend to play from the base of the thumb more even than the wrist when I need speed.

I do see the arm motion explicitly in his weird octave displacement stuff, just not on the fast chromatic lines. Would love to see it demoed.

[MarkRhodes]

Anyone have a vid of this arm motion thing? I'm not seeing it. I mean, his arm moves faster in faster passages to change strings, but I'm not seeing the fundamental movement change.

I've found that I can actually pick faster the less total motion I move. I tend to play from the base of the thumb more even than the wrist when I need speed.

I do see the arm motion explicitly in his weird octave displacement stuff, just not on the fast chromatic lines. Would love to see it demoed.

Glad you said that, Evan. I'm not seeing all that either. And the faster I play, the less anything but the pick seems to move.

[Mark78_blues]

I see a lot of arm motion here

[nunocpinto]

I see a lot of arm motion here

Exactly, the theme (slow) is played from the wrist, and as the solo begins he starts to mix both wrist and arm. All the fast lines come from the arm, but it's very very subtle, that's why you don't see it. It's the anchoring that allows this to work in Benson Picking. The arm is relaxed contrary to conventional picking were this type of movements stiff the arm and causes problems on the long run.

a "few" pages ago i talked about the importance of these two aspects of the right hand. From the wrist for slow medium things, and from the arm to play the fast blazing lines but no one except Groyniad seems to have understood it.

[destinytot]

a "few" pages ago i talked about the importance of these two aspects of the right hand. From the wrist for slow medium things, and from the arm to play the fast blazing lines but no one except Groyniad seems to have understood it.

Not for lack of trying! And thank you - please keep it coming!

[ecj]

I think the arm moves fast because the arm motion is what helps you change strings. It looks to me like his wrist/thumb is still being utilized just as much as when he was playing slow.

[Dioxic]

Jeez I'm going to have to catch up on this thread. You guys brought up a lot of great stuff in my absence.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a friend that plays metal that seems to use the Benson approach to his picking. Down to using fender mediums. He's arguably one of the fastest and most fluid / technical pickers I know.

I gave him a Benson-style line to noodle with and here's him playing it with a clear shot of his picking hand as promised. Please excuse the shirtlessness....the practice spot we were in was hooooot.

When I gave him this lick and he was pretty much able to play it almost instantly..

So what do you guys think? Is his technique similar? It's really hard for me to tell exactly where the motion is coming from. It seems to come from slightly different places based on what he's picking

[destinytot]

I think the arm moves fast because the arm motion is what helps you change strings. It looks to me like his wrist/thumb is still being utilized just as much as when he was playing slow.

I think that's true, but I don't think it plays the same role - I don't believe it provides the 'driving force'.

I rather suspect the whole arm - and even the back, shoulder and torso - generates torque, and that the wrist, thumb, forearm and elbow exert some kind of opposing, containing or balancing force.

The movement reminds me of the quivering locked hands of a pair of well-matched arm wrestlers - but without the strain, and with balletic elegance, poise and grace.