Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[MarkRhodes]

Hey Mark, as far as I can tell Gambale's and Bruno's pick direction method is the same - Gambale doesn't only play 3 notes per string though he prefers to use them when available. Bruno and Gambale may have different preferences for fingerings/scale position shapes, but the same rule applies for changing strings.

I think you're right about this. But I didn't hang with Gambale's book because he seemed to set things up where he was sweeping all the time and it sounded like sweeping. Very fusion-y. Jimmy's playing is different---though the stokes may be the same---in that he doesn't want the instrument to determine the music. So he doesn't talk about odd-numbers of notes on ascending passages and even numbers to reverse directions. I think a lot of it comes down to Jimmy having a more traditional jazz style, which I much prefer.

Upstrokes are different, alright, but I'm determined to do consecutive ones, whatever that might mean for my grip.

[MarkRhodes]

I've noticed the past few days that when I'm working on tremolo exercises and getting up there (-176+) that the pick is more like a chicken's beak in relation to the strings: it seems to peck down on them, and an upstroke is the reverse motion, with the sound coming when the pick clears the string and starts to vibrate. Whenever I get the pick in that position, I am immediately faster.

[Pocket Player]

im glad to see you really enjoying the troy Grady stuff !!!and the picking discussion in the forum's. it's really is awesome work. I know exactly how you feel. I too had the same Revelations about picking. Thimble and the waterfall.... soooo true Wait !!! it gets better! when you break your speed barriers. There's a change over in feel....and attack...as the picking changes over from alt picking to tremelo picking. a really cool feeling!! your excitement is contagious !!!! Ya got to love Breakthroughs.

[destinytot]

im glad to see you really enjoying the troy Grady stuff !!!and the picking discussion in the forum's. it's really is awesome work. I know exactly how you feel. I too had the same Revelations about picking. Thimble and the waterfall.... soooo true Wait !!! it gets better! when you break your speed barriers. There's a change over in feel....and attack...as the picking changes over from alt picking to tremelo picking. a really cool feeling!! your excitement is contagious !!!! Ya got to love Breakthroughs.

I've been practising Reg's scale fingering positions, quite slowly and in strict alternate picking. then I started looking for pentatonics - again with strict alternate picking - and I got the tiniest taste of tremolo.

[Dioxic]

I've been practising Reg's scale fingering positions, quite slowly and in strict alternate picking. then I started looking for pentatonics - again with strict alternate picking - and I got the tiniest taste of tremolo.

Sorry I might be blind, but where did Reg post his fingerings?

[destinytot]

Sorry I might be blind, but where did Reg post his fingerings?

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...tml#post548129
PDF attached to comment no. 1

[Dioxic]

Thank you! I'd like to add that I've been working through some Troy Grady stuff and had a similar "aha" moment when making a conscious effort to downward pick slant. I'm still deciphering how to finger / pick some of Benson's more crazy licks up to speed that don't seem to just go up or down diagonally though. None the less, I'm definitely sticking with the Benson thing. It's all finally starting to come together in a way my picking never really has before, but I suppose that could also be due to my increased attention to detail and working through Troy's stuff.

It might be a cool idea to keep a consistent separate log of our observations regarding benson picking and how it relates to what Troy says.

Oops, I should also mention that my way deviates from the Benson way a little pick in that I do not post my finger on the fretboard. I float or rest lightly on the strings.

[destinytot]

Perhaps I'm confused, but - if the guitar's bridge is on the left of the picture as we see it (closer to the 'Pickslanting' half) - I'm not sure I agree about using what's labelled as 'trailing edge' (except for upstrokes). But perhaps I haven't understood the image correctly.

Thanks for the tip, Dioxic. I'll give these lines a go - I've been in awe of it for years - starting slowly and working up, as you suggest. (I've seen two videos of guitarists playing along note-for-note, but it's way beyond me at the moment.)

[MarkRhodes]

Those images - for which, THANK YOU - show precisely what I understand the terms to mean. (I had previously conflated the two concepts, but I now see them as separate ideas.)

I had too. I originally assumed that by "slanting" he meant what is here (-in the illustration above) meant by "leading edge."

Frankly, I'm not sure how this sort of slant works with the Benson grip. (I'll practice again later and look into it then.)

[Dioxic]

Mark, first it's good to think of it as two separate planes. The angle of your pick can be influenced by your fingers, but also by your hand's position in relation to the guitar. If you lean the bottom half of you hand "inside" or "down" you'll get the downward pick slant that I'm referring to. It's subtle. And you'll realize it's built into the technique.


Most rock guys use what Troy calls the "leading edge" to "edge pick." Paul Gilbert is a great example of this.

See below:http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TZURmRPQPjA/hqdefault.jpg

Now the Benson technique, in my mind, has a certain amount of edge picking and downward pick slanting built into it. I mean with the way the pick is held it's got an extreme slant when it comes into contact with the string, which is essentially edge picking, just in the opposite direction. The downward pick slanting comes from the angle of the wrist / hand in relation to the strings / the way it's pinched between your finger and thumb.

Again, I want to reiterate that these are just my observations and that I have a slightly bastardized version of the technique. I don't angle the pick quite as much because I use round wound strings and I don't anchor or post my hand on the pickguard with my pinky, but rather float and / or lightly anchor my hand in between the bridge and stop tail.

I've only been doing this consistently for about two months. I have my off and on days, but it's certainly headed in an upward trajectory.

I'm going to be going out of town, but when I get back I'll see if I can shoot a quick video demonstrating the downward pick slanting / edge picking concept and how I believe it relates to the benson technique.

[MarkRhodes]

Now the Benson technique, in my mind, has a certain amount of edge picking and downward pick slanting built into it. I mean with the way the pick is held it's got an extreme slant when it comes into contact with the string, which is essentially edge picking, just in the opposite direction. The downward pick slanting comes from the angle of the wrist / hand in relation to the strings / the way it's pinched between your finger and thumb.

Again, I want to reiterate that these are just my observations and that I have a slightly bastardized version of the technique. I don't angle the pick quite as much because I use round wound strings and I don't anchor or post my hand on the pickguard with my pinky, but rather float and / or lightly anchor my hand in between the bridge and stop tail.

I've only been doing this consistently for about two months. I have my off and on days, but it's certainly headed in an upward trajectory.

I'm going to be going out of town, but when I get back I'll see if I can shoot a quick video demonstrating the downward pick slanting / edge picking concept and how I believe it relates to the benson technique.

Yes, the Benson grip involves a serious pick angle. I thought of that as "slant" but Troy is talking about the face of the pick tilting upward or downward. I hold the pick sideways----the 'face' of my pick is toward the bridge of the guitar; it's one edge of it that is toward the ceiling. ;o)

I look forward to your video. It's quite possible that I am misunderstanding something here.

[3625]

Found this on Troy Grady's site as a response to a question asked by a member there:

Troy Grady: "George Benson is a downward pickslanter! And an iconic one at that. His string-switch strategy is roughly the same as Yngwie’s... As I mention in the show, I started out as a trailing edge picker, which is the ‘backwards’ orientation I imagine you’re referring to. George does this, as did Shawn Lane, and as did Paul Gilbert when he was younger"

Here's the page link: Talking the Code: Season 2, Episode 1 | Troy Grady ? Guitarist

[Pocket Player]

this was just put up! only 72 views Great discussion guys.

[Dioxic]

Found this on Troy Grady's site as a response to a question asked by a member there:

Troy Grady: "George Benson is a downward pickslanter! And an iconic one at that. His string-switch strategy is roughly the same as Yngwie’s... As I mention in the show, I started out as a trailing edge picker, which is the ‘backwards’ orientation I imagine you’re referring to. George does this, as did Shawn Lane, and as did Paul Gilbert when he was younger"

Here's the page link: Talking the Code: Season 2, Episode 1 | Troy Grady ? Guitarist

Didn't know this existed, but this just confirms what I was talking about. He's a downward pickslanter and a trailing edge picker as I described!

I'm not convinced his system is quite like Yngwies, Yngwie will have things in groups of threes or sextuplets pretty often and it positions things in such a way that he always switches on an upstroke, allowing him to travel down (from highest to lowest) in a really cool way. I haven't really worked it up to speed since I've just started exploring all of this from the technical aside, but I understand the mechanic. Troy talks about this, but he mentions that if there are a number that doesn't allow him to switch this way then he'll use alternate picking and pull offs to allow him to still switch on the upstroke. To me it sounds like Benson picks mostly everything and doesn't pull off too much to allow him to reach his ridiculous speeds. I think it might also have to do with his fingerings of scales though. I think there's a system, just not quite the same as Yngwies. What I would give to hook up one of those high speed camera mounts that Troy uses to a guitar George was playing...

[Pocket Player]

everything he's done is a must see,for guitar players !!! and most if not all his camera work is available too. off his website i believe, all most everything is on youtube. worth a watch from season 1 all the way to present day.

[destinytot]

Which arrow indicates the leading edge on the pick above, the red arrow or the green one?

Seems pretty clear that both edges are available for playing. Like fingering, this also seems to be about articulation as much as speed. I'm really into this alternate picking, but sweeping arpeggios.

EDIT Troy Grady's comment on his latest video (Talking the Code: Combining Alternate Picking and Sweeping): "Articulation and dynamic range are where the music lives. But the point I was getting at is that too many people think that picking techniques have a sound, when in fact they should have the sound that you give them -- small and delicate, large and aggressive, the choice is an aesthetic one, not a mechanical one."

Funny, but that short solo on Love Island* turns out to be not so far beyond me after all - but it takes a thought and effort.

EDIT Transcriptions are a personal journey, and I came up with something other than what's shown in the GB Love Island solo transcription video I posted - great as it is.

[destinytot]

this was just put up! only 72 views Great discussion guys.

Thanks! And it's short!

PS It's gone from 72 to 1,732 views (12.14 GMT +1)

[Pocket Player]

the leading edge is... the one that makes contact with the string first. on the downstroke. green arrow.

[MarkRhodes]

the leading edge is... the one that makes contact with the string first. on the downstroke. green arrow.

Attachment 21865

This is the pick I am using now. Let us call the left side the "D" side (from the logo, "D'Andrea") and the right side the "a" side.

When I hold this pick in a Benson grip (-or my version of the Benson grip) the "a" side (edge) contacts the string on downstrokes, while the "D" side contacts the strings on upstrokes.

So this is two leading edges, one for each direction. (Sometimes when I tremolo pick, it seems that the pick never leaves the strings but slides from one side of the tip to the other.)

Right? Or not?

[destinytot]

the leading edge is... the one that makes contact with the string first. on the downstroke. green arrow.

Thanks, Pocket Player - so we're on the same page!

In the lesson extract I posted a while back, speaking about alternate picking and the way he picks arpeggios (with a technique consistent with Troy's description of 'sweeping' in the video posted today), Dan Wilson states plainly "You need to mix it up a little" - an aesthetic choice.

[setemupjoe]

Attachment 21865

This is the pick I am using now. Let us call the left side the "D" side (from the logo, "D'Andrea") and the right side the "a" side.

When I hold this pick in a Benson grip (-or my version of the Benson grip) the "a" side (edge) contacts the string on downstrokes, while the "D" side contacts the strings on upstrokes.

So this is two leading edges, one for each direction. (Sometimes when I tremolo pick, it seems that the pick never leaves the strings but slides from one side of the tip to the other.)

Right? Or not?

Yes Mark, that's right. This whole leading edge, trailing edge terminology that's sprouted up is confusing to people without a good point of reference. The fact that this thread is the length it is astounds me given that when I learned this technique I sat with Rodney Jones for an hour or two and I had the technique that I still use now twenty years later. There really is no substitute for being in the room with a good teacher.

[MarkRhodes]

Yes Mark, that's right. This whole leading edge, trailing edge terminology that's sprouted up is confusing to people without a good point of reference. The fact that this thread is the length it is astounds me given that when I learned this technique I sat with Rodney Jones for an hour or two and I had the technique that I still use now twenty years later. There really is no substitute for being in the room with a good teacher.

So "kimono my house" and show me how it's done! ;o)

I do think there are two aspects of this, though: one is how one holds the pick and the other is one's approach to picking (-strict alternate, economy, and always-changing-with-a-downstroke.) I have learned that if I get too much of the pick past the string, it makes the pick move in my hand. A big part of this for me is not so much how to hold the pick as it is to keep a position where I skate across the strings rather than dig somewhere, which will create drag on the pick and change the grip.

[MarkRhodes]

I do not understand upward and downward pick slanting in relation to Benson picking.

I've just watched the video Destiny posted (#1575 right now, but if someone later responds to a post before it, the video might move down a notch or two) and I see what Troy Grady means up upward / downward slanting, but he is not holding the pick in a Benson grip or using the anchor we Benson pickers use.

[Pocket Player]

Please excuse my hand if its not 100% correct on bensons grip. But here how it relates
to downward pick slanting. see how the picks facing downward? i even posted the flipped grip using the other edge if ya use that one as well By having that downward lean with the pick, thats what allows for the pick to hop over the string on your up stroke wont matter what edge you like to pick off. its the tilt toward the floor that makes downward pickslanting. see how my wrist opens up as well? (not strait) thats the visual cue. hope that helps mark.

[MarkRhodes]

Please excuse my hand if its not 100% correct on bensons grip. But here how it relates
to downward pick slanting. see how the picks facing downward?

Yes, I see that, and that's what I have trouble relating to the Benson grip. With the Benson grip, the pick tip is closer to sideways than pointed down.

(I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm saying I haven't figured out how to relate that to the Benson picking grip and method of anchoring. But as my dad used to say, "I've been wrong before!" I'm willing to be schooled.)