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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
The question I have is to the OP:
Philco, 2.5 years ago did it ever occur to you during the authorship of this thread that it would become 51 pages long with no end of continued contributions in sight? Isn't that like some form of immortality or something?
Phil can speak for himself, of course, but I have been amazed by the longevity, creativity, and civility of this thread. Good show, all!
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06-26-2015 08:58 PM
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Jack McDuff took Henry Johnson on the road for a couple years too. Both players---George and Henry---have said that Brother Jack taught them to "put some blues into everything you play." McDuff thought blues was the one thing everyone could relate to. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Wow. Brother McDuff alongside the player discovery he made who was playing across the street from his Pittsburg gig!
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06-27-2015, 04:13 AM #1378dortmundjazzguitar Guesthave you noticed how guys who studied with rodney jones and others have openly shared info and even videos of what they learned from them? and i'm sure rodney does not mind one bit. because it's all second-hand knowledge anyway. heck, rhodes, who incidentally liked your post, picked my brain on benson picking in *seven* long personal messages which i answered in great detail, including fingerings. no charge, not sending him elsewhere to pay for that info. again, it's all second-hand info anyway. now, regarding guys who actually come up with their own elaborated original concepts like charlie barnacos, i could see your point. but this thread becoming some sort of teaser for a paid website is kind of disappointing imo. but it seems that this is just me, so carry on. Originally Posted by ecj
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No I certainly didn't think it would have this longevity. It's become my morning read during breakfast which is great because the first thing I think about when I wake up is where I'm up to on the instrument. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
The question I have is to the OP:
Philco, 2.5 years ago did it ever occur to you during the authorship of this thread that it would become 51 pages long with no end of continued contributions in sight? Isn't that like some form of immortality or something?
I hope I was clear when I started the thread that I was no expert on the subject but that I had spent some time reconstructing my technique to emulate what I had seen George doing and what I had learned from the JC Styles video.
It turns out I knew way less about the subject than I thought and like many other contributors to the thread I have been constantly learning and adjusting as I go.......and still am.
So the first video at the start of this thread is actually missing a lot of info that I have learned in the last 2 years.
Im wondering if I should pull it and replace it with another more up to date one.
But then I'm never ever going to claim that I am an expert at the tech. Everyone seems to have their own take on it, only GB does it like GB.
The thing is........the physical side of the tech is almost impossible to put into words.....to describe to another player.
Sure one can talk about all the angles and muscles etc etc but it just doesn't seem to translate. So much of it is a bout a "feeling" and trying to describe that sounds kind of lame.
There are limitations to describing the tech, there are limitations when trying to learn from photos and there are even limitations to a Skype lesson.
If I could sit with someone and throw ideas back and forth and put the pick in their hand and move their wrist and talk them through the feeling of it and THEN play some simple lines and get into the whole rest stroke thing I really think I could help them and probably impart more information in a half hour than a 51 page long thread.
But I can't do that so when I get back to Australia I plan to make a small video with just one Benson lick that uses not only the grip (and by that I mean "my version of the grip") but also the rest stroke......because the rest stroke is part of the tech (you can see GB using rest stroke when playing this lick on a YT video).
Then perhaps others can post videos of themselves playing the same lick using the tech and we can discuss it.
This could be the way forward.
And when we get that down we'll move on to another lick.
And then perhaps our own ideas and phrases. Using the tech but not just copying GB's melodic ideas.
Thinking out loud here.....
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06-27-2015, 07:57 AM #1380destinytot GuestI've resolved to embrace influences... with 'purposeful equanimity'. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I was taken aback when, in the late '80s, Sean Levitt expressed mild contempt for what he seemed to perceive as a kind of blues-inflected caricature. Sean singled out a handful of players for this criticism, but he was hardest on George Benson.
Sean was not a happy camper, and I'm pretty certain that the object of Sean's contempt was something other than music. Besides, Sean always named BB King as his favourite guitarist (and Django as 'the best').
However, Sean's perspective on all aspects of technique was exceptional; this knowledge, and his insight into jazz, made him appear dangerous to a lot of musicians, some of whom now lionise and lament him.
Looking back, I cringe at the thought of how - out of 'fan-boy' naivety - I used to urge him to "do that George Benson thing again"...
But I'm more experienced now, and I plan on joining the dots of a puzzle involving:
- Sean's pick: hand-made, shaped and made of material very like a Pro-Plec, but a lot thicker (Henry Johnson shows it can be done)
- Sean's picking: he used to sit in front of the TV (we watched a lot of movies) and 'shake' the pick, practising a technique which I heard him describe as being 'like stirring soup with a ladle'. I can't prove it, but I'm now convinced that Sean's picking has more in common with George Benson's than meets the eye.
- Sean's huge admiration for Eddie Diehl, in whose playing I find useful pointers towards subtle technique and nuanced language in George Benson's playing.
Eddie solos from 1m29:
Sean from 2m27 - for me, his phrasing is on another level, and he puts wonderful sophisticated blues into his lines:
Last edited by destinytot; 06-27-2015 at 08:27 AM.
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No! No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no! Please, o God please, no! Originally Posted by Philco
Seriously, the OP should remain as long as this site remains. Now, you may want to add an updated version--"What I've Learned Since Then" or some such---but that video started a conversation that has lasted over 2 years and had nearly 60,000 responses. I think this is the best discussion of Benson picking on the Internet. It's amazing how many people have chimed in on this, and from a variety of perspectives. I think this thread has been a model of serious players at various stages of development have compared notes on how they understand and implement a technique unheard of by most of us when we started out.
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If you need any encouragement, you have my "thumbs-up" to this suggestion, Philco. (And, thank you for considering it.) Originally Posted by Philco
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That's a great idea, Phil! I look forward to that. (Even though I am on a self-declared Benson picking holiday, I remain fascinated with the technique and admire the dedication of the guys here who are not only working at it but improving measurably.) Originally Posted by Philco
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Well, my month-long holiday from Benson picking is over. As of today, 1 July, I am back at it. Feels good. The time away cleared my head and refreshed my right hand. Happy happy.
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There's a lot of talk about the right hand but not a lot about the left hand.
Lately, I've been thinking about the fingerings I use, and how I can improve them. Benson's technical and creative facility surely has a lot to do with how he uses his left hand too. I'm planning on transcribing some of his lines and copying his fingerings to try to understand how he does it. But I'm having a hard time finding a video of him playing jazz lines that also clearly shows his left hand.
I'm particularly interested in how he moves his hand up and down the fingerboard, diagonally. Wes did that a lot too, and I'm wondering how they ended up playing the guitar like that.
Has anyone thought about this subject ?
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Nabil, Originally Posted by Nabil B
I think that Wes and Benson play diagonally for the same reason that Django did. Their basic template for soloing is triads and when playing long lines they move from one shape to the next which moves them along the fingerboard.
The best and most easily understood explanation of organizing the fingerboard to play this way is the late Garrison Fewell's book, Jazz Improvisation for Guitar-A Melodic Approach. While Fewell does discuss RH picking in this book and on his Youtube videos, the book is mostly the "talking a lot about the left hand" that you're searching for.
Regards,
Jerome
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I think it's mainly about reorganising your fingerings to facilitate downstrokes on each string change. Gypsy guitarists finger in the same way. Originally Posted by Nabil B
This is what I now do 95% of the time and it feels solid. It may appear to some as a limitation, but IMO it's a strength - seems to sync both hands together well so you feel connected to the instrument more.
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Jerome : thanks for the suggestion, I will buy the book and see what I can get out of it.
3625 : can you elaborate on how you reorganized your fingerings ? I may be wrong, but it seems like one important element is to rely on a few small shapes that repeat all over the fingerboard, instead of learning 5 or 7 big shapes as separate entities. I've experimented with that a bit, and it seems that only 2 shapes per arp or scale is needed (one that you play starting with the index or middle finger, and one starting with the pinky). Those 2 shapes can cover the entire fingerboard, with some adjustments when the B and high E strings are used. Using these I've immediately started moving around the fingerboard instead of boxing myself in a position. I'm not used to visualizing the fingerboard like that so I'm not comfortable with it, and I'm still not quite sure if I will benefit from that or not.
As a side note, I've e-mailed JC Stylles about that and he said that he's planning to do a video that deals with the left hand. To paraphrase him, it's on his "to do list".Last edited by Nabil B; 07-07-2015 at 08:35 AM.
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With me the organisation was mostly unconscious, in that I was already very familiar with the positions for each chord all over the neck from years of playing bop with my old pick technique. Once you know that stuff then it's a matter of choice as to whether you want to move your left hand more horizontally or vertically across the fingerboard. Originally Posted by Nabil B
Downstrokes on every string change: like how Troy Grady explains for Eric Johnson and Malmsteen, whenever you descend from high to low, you always play an even number of notes per string - most commonly groups of 2 or 4 notes. Ascending low to high you can do whatever you want: 1,2,3 or 4 notes per string before switching to the higher adjacent string. I found when I switched to Benson picking I naturally adopted this order of picking because it felt natural (to me) based off the right hand position - same for when I previously experimented with gypsy picking as well.
Over time I noticed my left hand fingerings were more becoming more diagonal/horizontal as opposed to my previous way of vertical positioning when I was an down/upstroke economy picker like Bruno/Gambale.
I agree with the few small shapes repeating over the fingerboard - I found this to be the case as well - they naturally started to organise that way from continuously improvising over tunes, which is how I guess Benson did it also.
There's that clip of Benson being interviewed by Jody Fisher where he talks about this stuff and demonstrates it on the guitar. He said that he couldn't play like Barney Kessel, that is, vertically, so he had to figure out how to play across the neck instead. I think because Benson started as a thumb player, doing downstrokes on every string change when picking seemed quite natural, so he stuck with that and his horizontal fingerings quickly evolved as a direct result of this.
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07-09-2015, 01:17 PM #1390destinytot Guest
I've been evaluating my picking and fingering after watching Troy Grady's recent video on the mechanics of Steve Morse's technique.
I decided to look at what works - and why - and what doesn't - and why not.
As I've been practising on my nylon-strung guitar, first I tried out what I've been picking up about Benson picking. I liked the results I got (with a clip-on condenser - if anyone would like to see/hear, I'll gladly make a short video).
But I wanted to look closely at how I tend to finger my lines, and I haven't quite got the knack of bringing awareness to both hands when I'm playing my big-bodied semi.
It occurred to me to use my Eastwood 7-string as... well, what it is... a guitar - and a small-bodied one. This is as described, i.e. noodling - purposeful noodling - with guitar recorded straight to Audacity via a soundcard, no processing, flatwounds and a Jim Dunlop nylon .88 pick. Comments welcome.
Last edited by destinytot; 07-09-2015 at 01:24 PM.
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07-10-2015, 05:27 PM #1391destinytot Guest
After finding that I was snagging the pick over string changes, I had a big breakthrough today, and went back to playing my lines on my big semi.
I paid attention to anchor/fulcrum and The Grip, but what I really focused on was downward slanting and arc of the pick (thanks to Troy Grady's Yngwie Lesson: Cracking the Code — Season 2, Episode 1: "Get Down for the Upstroke" and his Steve Morse Lesson: Arpeggio Picking (The Steve Morse Interview, Chapter 6) ).
Huge help.
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Great to hear! I watched the Morse video and have seem portions of the Yngwie one. Originally Posted by destinytot
I've spent time--as have you--on the "One way to hold a guitar pick" thread (-as has Evan, aka ecj), which has morphed into a discussion of picking exercises. Vintagelove stressed the avoidance of "outside picking" and argued that (I paraphrase) it is less important how you hold a pick than how you move it. I think he's on to something.
Not that I'm going to go away form Benson picking. It's more comfortable than anything else for me now. But for the past few days, I've focused on "no outside picking" (---which Troy Grady talks about) and that seems to have cleared up several things. Also, when I think of "no outside picking" it makes me more aware of what I'm wanting the pick to do and that gives any thoughts about the grip the right frame of reference. Or so it seems to me today... ;o)
By the way, for those who have followed the "one way to hold a guitar pick" thread, Vintagelove has recorded some short demo vids of the 3 nps and 4 nps exercises.
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I haven't been following the "hold a guitar pick" thread in great detail, so don't know if this was covered - but as Troy Grady showed with the Malmsteen/Eric Johnson stuff, doing downstrokes on every string change eliminates the outside picking issue. Just thought I'd point that out for anyone who hasn't made that connection. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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That's a good point. Avoiding outside picking---at least in fast passages--seems to be something most fast players hit upon, however they hold the pick. Originally Posted by 3625
Right now, I'm working with Jimmy Bruno's book and his way is change to a higher sounding string (such as from B to high E) with a downstroke and change to every lower sounding string (such as high E to B) with an upstroke. That feels more natural to me now. But it also avoids outside picking, so these are two ways of reaching the same goal. (I realize that always changing with a downstroke adds more, as Joe Pass put it, "definition" to one's lines.
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I did Bruno's/Gambale's method for nearly two decades as that was how my teacher played, however you can't do consecutive upstrokes with the traditional Benson grip. As you have a hypermobile thumb you may be able to develop a hybrid grip - Vintagelove's clips on the other thread looked like a cross between traditional and Benson picking - the hand was flat against the body but he still had the 'reverse angle' of the pick. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
While there's a danger in flitting from one approach to the next too quickly, IME it's good to study different approaches and figure out the advantages/disadvantages of each. I find it goes a long way to understanding a certain player's phrasing and rhythmic feel based on their pick technique.
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07-11-2015, 08:17 AM #1396destinytot Guest
I'm pretty sure that Troy Grady's explaining two distinct concepts when he talks about 'downward pick slanting' and 'pick-edge playing'.
Moreover, that distinction is particularly important for me because I was beginning to fear that my big-bodied archtop actually disadvantages me in terms of (Benson) picking-hand mechanics - because when I hold that guitar, despite the considerable size of my arms and hands, I'm unable to make my picking hand's position look as 'right' as I can when I hold a smaller-bodied guitar. There is, of course, no such disadvantage (I'm relieved to say) - same goes for pick guards, imho - thanks to downward pick slanting.
I appreciate JC Stylles's tutorial so much more when I put it next to this comment from Vintagelove in the "One way to hold a pick" thread:
Vintagelove's 3nps exercise (see post number 298) has already helped me spot a weakness/flaw in my fretting/fingering habits - which, though it had been pointed out to me (in the lesson excerpt re-posted below), I failed to either pick up on or address. l want to look at fingerings for Barry Harris diminished-sixth scale fingerings - and get the pick to do the work.The "problem" with the 4 finger excercise (which I also teach to beginners) is that it is easy. It's designed that way. Each string has an even number of notes and therefore always crosses strings with a downstroke. It is good for syncing the two hands. However as you probably noticed, you can do a four finger excercise real fast, then when you go back to improvise, play heads, etc.... Your back to tripping over certain things.
Imo a three finger excercise is much more valuable for things you will encounter (and stumble over) in the real world.
Overcoming outside picking
economy picking
pick/slur
playing straight eighths/sixteenths regardless of how they fall on the guitar.
application to scales
Last edited by destinytot; 07-11-2015 at 08:21 AM.
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I heard of Gambale first and bought his "Speed Picking" book (which came with a cassette, not a CD). I didn't much care for it, as I don't like the 3 nps scale patterns he favors. But even more, his sound was too fusion-y for me. It's not what I wanted to do. But I do credit him with giving me my first taste of "sweep" or "economy" picking. Originally Posted by 3625
Bruno doesn't like the idea of odd numbers of notes on strings--he just doesn't think that way (-though if Troy Grady filmed him, we might learn that Jimmy was unconsciously doing this when burnin') and he doesn't like the term "sweep" but there is a lot of overlap between the two approaches. (Though Jimmy does not use the shredder's 3 nps scale patterns; he prefer old school major scale patterns, and he doesn't think in terms of modes, while Gambale does.)
As for consecutive upstrokes being unavailable to the Benson picker, I don't seem to have a problem with them. Maybe my grip has morphed into something that no longer qualifies as Benson picking but I don't think so. Obviously, if you decide to make every change with a downstroke, you won't have consecutive upstrokes but that's not because of the mechanics involved. Right? Or am I missing something?
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07-11-2015, 09:34 AM #1398destinytot Guest(Re. sentence in bold) Yay! Surely Groyniad's talking about 'downward pick slant'! I missed it before (but I get it now). Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Hey Mark, as far as I can tell Gambale's and Bruno's pick direction method is the same - Gambale doesn't only play 3 notes per string though he prefers to use them when available. Bruno and Gambale may have different preferences for fingerings/scale position shapes, but the same rule applies for changing strings. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
If you check out the hand position of GB, JC, etc., it's what Troy Grady calls 'downward pick slanting' where the hand drops away from the strings a little. In order to do consecutive upstrokes on string changes you need to do what Grady calls 'upward pick slanting' which is anathema to what we think of as Benson picking in terms of the biomechanics involved.
One problem with consecutive upsweeps is that they can sound weak because you're fighting gravity - especially the second concurrent upstroke - eg. G string to D string (the note on the D string often sounds weaker). I saw Bruno talk about this somewhere on youtube where he consciously practiced making the upstrokes sound stronger to compensate.
However, economy picking as done by Bruno/Gambale means you can play any kind of odd/even number of notes on each string and not get tripped up by the 'outside picking problem'.
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07-12-2015, 08:23 AM #1400destinytot Guest
Another breakthrough/'aha!' moment last night...
The penny having dropped regarding 'downward pickslanting', I had no difficulty maintaining it while concentrating on singing and playing on a solo restaurant gig. That in itself is a big breakthrough for me; priorities in order - interpretation over mechanics (sounds obvious, but...
) - and freedom to let expression flow.
What 'flowed' was unexpected and fun. I surprised myself by 'channelling' not only Joe Williams - I have just enough chutzpah to get away with half-remembered lyrics when playing for a mostly-Spanish audience - but also Freddie Green. The funny thing is that I was holding my classical/hybrid (+ clip-on condenser mic with a goose-neck) when I suddenly felt inclined to break into a blues (Every Day I Have The Blues in Ab).
That's also a big breakthrough for me; because for years now I've only performed 'pretty' music. (No complaints, but good sauces require the right spices - and in the right doses and combinations, too.)
The breakthrough was that I think I held the pick right. I can't convey it in words, but I think I can do so in a video. I can say that my 'aha!' moment was about the thumb - but, having said that, I think that the responsible thing to do now is to add that the thumb is only one part of a much bigger picture (the 'tip of the iceberg', so to speak).
I believe that the full picture is on this thread... but it's scattered, like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
So, why do I think I held the pick right? Because it worked. I was suddenly able to switch between chords and lines - favourite licks/lines, 'walking bass' and counterpoint lines - in a way that felt exhilarating because it was musical.
In other words, it swung. Obviously, this is something I want to develop.
(I'm convinced that this is happening because of what I'm learning from forum threads. I'm also pretty sure that having practised with a pick on a classical made me more inclined to go along with the idea when it occurred to me, but the forum threads are helping me find a way to go beyond mechanics - without avoiding them. For example, I've just discovered Reg's huge array of videos on YouTube - what a fantastic resource that is! - and there's an ingredient common to each video I've watched so far... groove/swing.)
Back to bringing my left (fretting/fingering) hand into the picture; back to the jigsaw, to 'cracking the code'. It feels like I'm trying use a thimble to catch water from a waterfall.
Thank you, 3625, for these vital pieces of the puzzle. Now I feel a bit like a learner driver who's only just learned to operate the pedals and levels of a vehicle, but is about to move off into busy traffic - without supervision.
Originally Posted by 3625
...whenever you descend from high to low, you always play an even number of notes per string - most commonly groups of 2 or 4 notes.Ascending low to high you can do whatever you want: 1,2,3 or 4 notes per string before switching to the higher adjacent string....small shapes repeating over the fingerboard...Last edited by destinytot; 07-12-2015 at 08:26 AM. Reason: spelling
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