Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

**MarkRhodes** · 06-03-2015, 09:50 AM

I talked about this with JC. He offered to spend time with me on Skype to do a bit of fine-tuning (-he really is a great guy) but I declined the offer and have declared June to be Benson-free zone. After a year--or is it two, now?--of obsessional focus on this, I need a break.

A catalyst for this decision was re-enrolling in Jimmy Bruno's Guitar Workshop and submitting several videos. I didn't like the way they sounded uneven tone, no punch glitches in things I know well. I decided, "I'm not going through another month of this. I have to do something else. Until I know what that is, I want to stop what I've been doing. So for a month I'm going to pull a page from the George Costanza playbook and do the opposite of what I have been doing..."

I fished a handful of picks out of a container and the Primetone 204 seemed best. (See photo below.) It's small and stubby, no flex. I still play with an angle but it's the opposite direction because the pick is held in more of a conventional way (-no cocked thumb). This puts my hand in a different relationship to the strings and the pickguard. (I'm not worried about that at all, simply observing it.) My only goal is to enjoy playing the guitar again.

Obviously, JC Stylles is a great player and a good teacher. Perhaps it's a talent deficit but it seemed to me the more I practiced, the unhappier I got. I didn't like the sound I was getting. I assume this is entirely my fault. The technique works for JC and for many others here. Who knows, I may be back to it before all is said and done. But for now, I'm on a holiday from Benson picking and I fell much relieved.

Attachment 20695

**joe2758** · 06-03-2015, 12:12 PM

Hey Mark,
I've seen your videos on Jimmy's site; sounds good to me! Your story about obsessing over this picking made me instantly think of Jimmy's video where he talks about so many players getting hung up on minutiae of things. Have you seen that? For me it was music theory, but it doesn't matter. I'm glad to see you're going to focus on making your playing more enjoyable again!

I may have to try out one of those 204s; I've been using the 205 for years.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-03-2015, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

Hey Mark,
I've seen your videos on Jimmy's site; sounds good to me! Your story about obsessing over this picking made me instantly think of Jimmy's video where he talks about so many players getting hung up on minutiae of things. Have you seen that? For me it was music theory, but it doesn't matter. I'm glad to see you're going to focus on making your playing more enjoyable again!

I may have to try out one of those 204s; I've been using the 205 for years.

Thanks, Joe. I really appreciate that.

I have some of those 205s too. (A couple years ago I ordered a half dozen packs (3-6 picks per pack) of Dunlop picks to try them out. Have some of the real thick ones too--2mm, at least. I don't know if the 204 is "forever" and right now I don't care. I'm on holiday! (Still playing every day, just not worrying about it.)

I do know that Bruno video you are talking about. But I don't think Jimmy thinks of picking as minutiae---he wrote a book on it! But I grant your point that I obsessed over it and "took my eyes off the prize." As the old Zeppelin song goes, "Nobody's Fault But Mine."

Ironically, my picking seems much better the past couple days. It's not my old grip either. It's closer to a conventional grip (and I would be fine with it being called that; it's just not quite the way I used to hold a pick either.) Perhaps in some odd way I had to do Benson picking for awhile to make what I'm doing now seem natural. Time will tell.

**3625** · 06-03-2015, 08:48 PM

Hey Mark, I get where you're coming from on this. However, since you've done the hard yards already with Benson picking I'd say just take a break for a little bit and then maybe come back to it later on with a fresh perspective.

Also, there's nothing to stop you from switching between both techniques - make a study of the pros and cons of each method in relation to playing, that is, improvising. I periodically go back to my old technique (actually there's a couple of them) and compare what's what. Though for me, BT is a keeper - but I've been up against more than a few walls in the transition period like all of us.

You've got one of those hypermobile thumbs like Reg so you should be able to quite easily use a reverse pick angle (the Benson angle) while adopting a more traditional hand/arm position - Jimmy Raney being an example of the latter. I've been checking out all kinds of blues, soul, funk, r & b, and gospel players and so many of those guys use a similar grip to Benson in terms of the pick angle but with lots of subtle variations in terms of hand placement.

The big advantage of the reverse angle IMO is that it pops the note out quicker - and more confidently - resulting in a better time feel. Which is why I can't go back. I'm going to say that on average, all the guys who pick reverse angle tend to have better time than most players who pick traditional grip - regardless of genre. Metheny does reverse angle. Reg does it, and he has one of the best time feels going - whether or not his technique developed instinctively or deliberately, only he could say - but all the guys with hypermobile thumbs tend to naturally pick that way - at least it seems to me.

The other method that results in strong time feel is gypsy picking - and I know you dig Vignola so that's worth checking out. I spent a year on that before trying out Benson picking, as well as hybrid approaches between gypsy and traditional like Andreas Oberg. After all this study I'm realising that picking technique exists on a spectrum relative to what style you're playing, what tone you want and what type of time feel. So there's plenty of options as long as it's actually working - I don't buy into these guys who say 'just pick what feels natural' and they are obviously struggling. Pick a model, whether it's Herb, Bruno, JC, Vignola and make a study of it, then devise you're own strategy based off that. My2c

I'm up for a Skype session later this month if you want to trade notes on this - right now cramming for exams so the guitar is mostly sitting in its case for the next two weeks - then I'll be back to it!

**MarkRhodes** · 06-04-2015, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by 3625

Hey Mark, I get where you're coming from on this. However, since you've done the hard yards already with Benson picking I'd say just take a break for a little bit and then maybe come back to it later on with a fresh perspective.

Also, there's nothing to stop you from switching between both techniques - make a study of the pros and cons of each method in relation to playing, that is, improvising. I periodically go back to my old technique (actually there's a couple of them) and compare what's what. Though for me, BT is a keeper - but I've been up against more than a few walls in the transition period like all of us.

Thanks for the great long post, Jon.
Right now I don't want to think about "next" or "in addition to." (I'm not against the ideas but right now I cannot entertain them.) It's fun to angle the pick the opposite way, to use a smaller pick, and to just not think about my picking at all and just play. (I'm playing some songs of my own that I hadn't played in years as well as some tunes I've known a long time but haven't played lately. It's a much needed change of pace.)

Next month could be another story, but this month is like the old Bing Crosby and Louis Armstrong duet: "Gone Fishin''

destinytot · 06-04-2015, 05:23 PM

I've decided to leave the forum, and I'm posting here to say thanks and so long.

**ecj** · 06-04-2015, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I've decided to leave the forum, and I'm posting here to say thanks and so long.

Sorry to see you go, man. Feel free to connect anytime off the forum through my fb or page.

**3625** · 06-04-2015, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I've decided to leave the forum, and I'm posting here to say thanks and so long.

Hey Mike, what's up? Take it easy and I'll see you on the interwebs somewhere else. Good luck with your upcoming projects. Cheers

**MarkRhodes** · 06-04-2015, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I've decided to leave the forum, and I'm posting here to say thanks and so long.

Whoa! This place is like the Hotel California: you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave! ;o)

If you are asking to have your account deleted, send me a PM. Then in a week you'll need to send another one. (Because deleting an account cannot be undone, people are asked to think about it for at least a week. Most decide against leaving during this interim. For those who persist, the request is forwarded to the site administrator and he takes it from there.)

I hope you think about this some more and decide to stay, Mike. You're a positive force here.

**setemupjoe** · 06-04-2015, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I've decided to leave the forum, and I'm posting here to say thanks and so long.

Sorry to see you go. I hope everything is good. This thread has been a particularly cordial one with very little trolling. I for one have appreciated your input.

Mark

**Groyniad** · 06-07-2015, 10:52 AM

yeah sorry to see you go too - its been great to have you as part of our discussions - no-one else (apart from mark maybe) is going to dig my much too philosophical contributions!
warmest wishes man
jon

**Groyniad** · 06-07-2015, 10:54 AM

3625 is dead right about the time feel

the other thing - maybe even more important - is the tonal difference. right from the start - i.e. even when i was nowhere near doing it right - the sound convinced me i had to stay with it.

now that i'm seriously getting the results - i'm very very glad i stuck with it (its been 2 years for me too)

destinytot · 06-07-2015, 05:12 PM

Genuinely touched. Changed my mind, or at least my thinking because of it. Thanks, Cats.

**MarkRhodes** · 06-07-2015, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Genuinely touched. Changed my mind, or at least my thinking because of it. Thanks, Cats.

Yay!

The answer to the musical question, "Where is the love?" is, "Right here!" ;o)

**3625** · 06-07-2015, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Genuinely touched. Changed my mind, or at least my thinking because of it. Thanks, Cats.

Glad to hear it

**Dioxic** · 06-08-2015, 09:25 AM

Hey guys I skimmed through about half the thread, so excuse me if these questions have been asked, but I'd like some guidance. I've been picking like this for about a month and a lot of these things it seems I'm doing naturally, but it's still not quite where I'd want it and probably won't be for some time. I start back up at school in another two months so I'm hoping it gets itself together by then.

1. I'm aware some of you have studied with Rodney Jones. What's the deal with the rest strokes? What exercises did he give you?

2. For those of you in general do you have any specific exercises to work on this technique?

3. I'm aware that a lot of this tends to be sweeping up the neck and alternate picking back down. Did you guys have to change your licks or vocabulary to accommodate this? What about jumping back and forth between strings?

4. How many of you use this technique with round wounds? I'll be honest, I'm much more of a round wound guy and I'm mostly interested in this technique or a variation of it because of Adam Rogers and Sheryl Bailey / Rodney Jones by association and not so much Benson himself. I know it appears Adams kinda got his own thing / variation of it worked out. When I use fender mediums with round wounds at the exact angle that most of you do on your flats I get a horrible scraping sound. However, when I use my teardrop 1.5mm D'Andrea pro plecs (which I think are what Adam uses) I'm able to maintain that angle without much scrape. Which brings me
to my last point.

5. In what ways does Adam's technique differ? It appears he sweeps both up and down, that his motion might be coming from higher up on the arm, and that his pick angle isn't as drastic, perhaps to accommodate for having round wound strings. I thought about making a separate thread for this and still might, but I figured you guys would have some valuable insight. Here's a video detailing his right hand pretty well.

Beginning at around 0:52

**setemupjoe** · 06-16-2015, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dioxic

Hey guys I skimmed through about half the thread, so excuse me if these questions have been asked, but I'd like some guidance. I've been picking like this for about a month and a lot of these things it seems I'm doing naturally, but it's still not quite where I'd want it and probably won't be for some time. I start back up at school in another two months so I'm hoping it gets itself together by then.

1. I'm aware some of you have studied with Rodney Jones. What's the deal with the rest strokes? What exercises did he give you?

2. For those of you in general do you have any specific exercises to work on this technique?

3. I'm aware that a lot of this tends to be sweeping up the neck and alternate picking back down. Did you guys have to change your licks or vocabulary to accommodate this? What about jumping back and forth between strings?

4. How many of you use this technique with round wounds? I'll be honest, I'm much more of a round wound guy and I'm mostly interested in this technique or a variation of it because of Adam Rogers and Sheryl Bailey / Rodney Jones by association and not so much Benson himself. I know it appears Adams kinda got his own thing / variation of it worked out. When I use fender mediums with round wounds at the exact angle that most of you do on your flats I get a horrible scraping sound. However, when I use my teardrop 1.5mm D'Andrea pro plecs (which I think are what Adam uses) I'm able to maintain that angle without much scrape. Which brings me
to my last point.

5. In what ways does Adam's technique differ? It appears he sweeps both up and down, that his motion might be coming from higher up on the arm, and that his pick angle isn't as drastic, perhaps to accommodate for having round wound strings. I thought about making a separate thread for this and still might, but I figured you guys would have some valuable insight. Here's a video detailing his right hand pretty well.

Beginning at around 0:52

I put some basic exercises on a video I posted about this technique that I learned from Rodney. I would say mainly just play any warm up exercises you find. This technique doesn't need specific exercises. Use what's already out there. Because of the picking style of sweeping from low to high strings and cross picking from high to low strings there is a natural tendency to sweep arpeggios going up and picking scales going down. That becomes a nice exercise to do.

I never consciously thought of changing my lines to accommodate the picking style but I have found over the years that the lines I play are influenced by how I pick. Also my fingerings. I like to use fingerings that minimize string skips, e.g. jumping from the 2nd to the 4th string. I still do string skipping, but maybe less than I would if I was playing a more standard picking style.

Rodney hipped me to flat wounds and I never went back. I agree if you use round wounds you need to work on getting less of an angle across the string to avoid the scratching noise.

**Stu Foley** · 06-16-2015, 05:48 PM

Mark C,

In light of you preferring the mobility of your fretting hand to allow you to avoid too many string skips, did you spend alot of time practicing three octave scales and arps diagonally along the fretboard? If so, does this relegate the importance of thinking about the fretboard in positional (five fret spans) terms as is taught in all method books? Also does playing along the neck in such manner confer an advantage for sight-reading purposes because there effectively would be only one fingering per key, making the instrument more pianistic in nature?

Many thanks.

**setemupjoe** · 06-16-2015, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Stu Foley

Mark C,

In light of you preferring the mobility of your fretting hand to allow you to avoid too many string skips, did you spend alot of time practicing three octave scales and arps diagonally along the fretboard? If so, does this relegate the importance of thinking about the fretboard in positional (five fret spans) terms as is taught in all method books? Also does playing along the neck in such manner confer an advantage for sight-reading purposes because there effectively would be only one fingering per key, making the instrument more pianistic in nature?

Many thanks.

I did end up working scale and arpeggio patterns up the neck rather than straight across. At the time I didn't know that this was a Benson device but it felt good to play that way and it gave me lines that could cover more distance which I really liked. For sight reading I find I still read most commonly in positions. I learned to read with the 12 Leavitt positions and they still turn up in my playing as well. So the bottom line is I play in all directions. Jim Hall told me years ago to practice playing solos on one string only, then two strings (not necessarily two adjacent strings) and so on. I guess in the end you want to be comfortable with it all.
The bottom line is I think much more about chords than scales so my concept of the guitar neck is playing over the chord shapes I see on the neck. Everything else is passing tones. It took me a long time to realize the real color and style of a good solo comes from those passing tones.

**Reg** · 06-22-2015, 09:47 AM

I saw something about Destinytot...(mike) leaving Forum...
I haven't been reading... but hey Man... why you leavin, guitarist are a clan, we all get dished and dumped on as well as some good stuff once in a while. Your an important piece of the picture around here. Your posts are always on the right side of the line... we all need your wisdom and real world kindness.

Anyway... you gotta do what you gotta do.... hope things go well... Reg

**MarkRhodes** · 06-22-2015, 09:55 AM

You know, guys, this thread is still listed as being 50 pages long yet new posts keep being added (-though not at the rapid pace of six months ago.) I wonder if 50 pages is the limit....

destinytot · 06-22-2015, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

I saw something about Destinytot...(mike) leaving Forum...
I haven't been reading... but hey Man... why you leavin, guitarist are a clan, we all get dished and dumped on as well as some good stuff once in a while. Your an important piece of the picture around here. Your posts are always on the right side of the line... we all need your wisdom and real world kindness.

Anyway... you gotta do what you gotta do.... hope things go well... Reg

Thanks, man, really! But I decided against leaving - I need the good stuff.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-22-2015, 10:35 AM

Thank goodness. We need you around here.

**edh** · 06-22-2015, 11:58 PM

Mark, 50 pages...nah keep going, as long as it stays on topic, or close to it.

**ecj** · 06-23-2015, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

You know, guys, this thread is still listed as being 50 pages long yet new posts keep being added (-though not at the rapid pace of six months ago.) I wonder if 50 pages is the limit....

I'm not sure what else there is to say about the picking side. I think we need a left-hand thread, because I'm very interested in that these days.

I got a great lesson from JC Stylles a while ago where I suddenly realized how Benson was setting up the fingerings, and it makes so much freakin' sense. It's beautifully executed.