Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[destinytot]

How I'm anchoring:

[MarkRhodes]

How I'm anchoring:

Thanks. That's a great view. It's so hard to see George's pinky when he's playing. Or JC's, for that matter. Anyone's really.

[destinytot]

Thanks. That's a great view. It's so hard to see George's pinky when he's playing. Or JC's, for that matter. Anyone's really.

Setemupjoe's pickguard tells a tale!

To be honest, I don't really find it helpful to think of the picking hand as a single unit. I prefer the image of a tree, with trunk rooted (grounded) and branches waving in the wind - the flop of pick as the flapping of leaves (couldn't resist -sorry!).

[MarkRhodes]

Setemupjoe's pickguard tells a tale!

To be honest, I don't really find it helpful to think of the picking hand as a single unit. I prefer the image of a tree, with trunk rooted (grounded) and branches waving in the wind - the flop of pick as the flapping of leaves (couldn't resist -sorry!).

It sure does! I wonder if Benson's would look that way, though---his anchor seems to slide around.

[Groyniad]

the pinky-anchor is hidden by the rest of the hand - that's just how it works isn't it

as i said before there is a purely mechanical or physical aspect to anchoring which is crucial. you use your pinky to set your hand in a constant position relative to the strings - and when you do that properly, getting the same contact with the string all the time becomes genuinely possible, and picking problems vanish.

for this physical thing to work the anchor really has to set your hand in (pretty much) exactly the same place relative to the strings - your hand kind of traces an arc from fat low strings to thin high ones - but the arc is always the same and its always the same distance from the strings.

i felt this happening for the first time when it was the BONES in my pinky that were doing the work. you lock up the finger and the bones set and you let the bones of the pinky hold your hand in place (this frees-up your hand its not 'rigid'). you can do this from the first knuckle rather than bending the pad into the pick guard - but if you rest your right hand along side the pick guard so your fingers are running sort of parallel to the pick guard its very hard to get consistent positioning relative to the strings because its not locked bones and joints that are doing the work but moving muscles.

remember - its all about TOTALLY relaxing your picking hand. (being able to use a SUPER light grip is a symptom of being sufficiently relaxed in that hand). but you can't relax your picking hand as you have to if you aren't managing to use your pinky as a proper anchor.

[destinytot]

the pinky-anchor is hidden by the rest of the hand - that's just how it works isn't it
.......
you can do this from the first knuckle rather than bending the pad into the pick guard

¡Sí, señor!

[MarkRhodes]

the pinky-anchor is hidden by the rest of the hand - that's just how it works isn't it

O, yes, I agree. But given that we can't see it, we have to be wary about thinking we would know how it would look if we did. Further, in George's case, his right hand moves around. A lot. It doesn't seem to be anchored in the conventional sense of fixed with weight in one space. In the "Benson study" clip there are times when his hand doesn't leave the pickguard but seems to move along the surface of it. I wouldn't know how to answer the question "where is his pinky anchored here?"

[destinytot]

Do the times when GB's hand doesn't appear to move along the pickguard coincide with his playing of fast phrases?

[MarkRhodes]

I've decided to do another month of coaching with JC. (I'll start after the first of the coming month, May.)

The first time helped and I probably got as much from it as I was able to absorb at the time. Now some things are better but others are at a fork-in-the-road stage and I need some better advice than I'm able to provide myself. One thing I hope to become clearer about is anchoring.

[m_d]

O, yes, I agree. But given that we can't see it, we have to be wary about thinking we would know how it would look if we did. Further, in George's case, his right hand moves around. A lot. It doesn't seem to be anchored in the conventional sense of fixed with weight in one space. In the "Benson study" clip there are times when his hand doesn't leave the pickguard but seems to move along the surface of it. I wouldn't know how to answer the question "where is his pinky anchored here?"

I'm deep into those concepts myself these days, my catalyst was Troy Grady's material too, to me it really is a kind of Rosetta stone, though my focus when I discovered it was more on chords and I made a decision not to abandon that study to play just lines, but see how it adapted to chords, and after some fumbling and exploration I'm finding it works perfect for chords too, be it strumming or chord/melody. The idea is to be able, later on, to have a real continuity in the right hand for chords and single notes so as to be able to go from the one to the other seamlessly.

The anchor issue is an interesting one, there is a degree of anchoring, but the very name anchor can be a bit deceiving as an anchor is a heavy motionless object. But here we have an anchor that not only moves around, but needs to be light and relaxed. The point was driven home for me, again, watching some of Troy's clips in slo-mo. The side of the pinky is a main point of contact but the tips and sides of other fingers too as they graze the pickguard or the strings or under the strings. Even the side of the thumb, in a strumming context and upward pickslanting direction, brushing the string plane. The "mobile anchor" function thus achieved, it would seem, helps the picking hand know where it is most of the time relative to the strings, it's a sort of guiding device.

[ecj]

JC Stylles' anchor is the middle segment of his pinky. That works pretty well for me. Looks like that's what Benson and Henry Johnson use, too, based on some investigative Googling.

Have been playing with using "arm motion", and I really like it. I find that when the tempos heat up, I naturally start making smaller and smaller motions, but without trying to "cut off" the arm and shoulder like I've always been taught before. I think that's what Tuck Andress was talking about with starting from "gross" motions. One thing I really like is to think of the pick as just an extension of my thumb.

With all the anchoring discussion, I would caution people to not discount the fact that you have to have an actual motion from the arm that moves the pick between strings. If you anchor, don't just crank the wrist awkwardly to try to reach the bass strings. You are going to have to move the arm and slightly move the anchor. You want the hand position and picking motion to be pretty similar no matter which string you're over. Remember Tuck describing it as the needle and arm of a turn table.

You can see Benson's and JC Stylles' hands actually sliding up on the pick guard and making contact with the high-E when they're on the lower strings. If you're doing a super hard anchor and just cranking the wrist back to reach the low-E, it's going to be impossible to play fluidly.

I think Benson has so many different techniques that it's hard to make determinations about the basics from watching him. He uses his arm to crank back and forth really quickly for his wide interval techniques and all the crazy octave displacement stuff he does. It's easier to see the basic setup by watching Perry Hughes, Henry Johnson, etc.

This thread needs more vids and less postulation, though. I'll try to put something up later to show some of the adaptations I've made.

[Groyniad]

the idea that the pinky works as a kind of guiding device so that 'the picking hand knows where it is... relative to the strings' is precisely the idea i was challenging above. there may be this sub-conscious dimension to it - but there's also a flat-out non-conscious dimension too - that is, a purely physical dimension. if you use the pinky right, it ensures your picking finger and thumb is almost precisely the same distance away from the strings all the time - and this is why picking improves IMMEDIATELY you get it right and let your hand go.

i was doing drawing and writing with my five year old this morning and he was trying to draw and write with his whole arm suspended above the paper and table - just hanging in the air. it was obviously going to be almost impossible for him to form any decent letters that way. try it.

you could learn to write like this - if you worked very very hard at it. no contact between hand and paper/desk - just holding your arm/wrist above the paper at the right distance to make contact with the pen.

but its much much better to lay your arm on the table and let all the effort go out of it - not just because it stops fatigue (which makes your arm shake after a while) but because it sets up your wrist/fingers to be in the right place relative to the paper...

the fact that players like benson combine all sorts of techniques seamlessly in their mind-boggling playing should not distract us from the essential points - or from the hard-core fundamental technique he uses.

[MarkRhodes]

The "mobile anchor" function thus achieved, it would seem, helps the picking hand know where it is most of the time relative to the strings, it's a sort of guiding device.

That's a new one on me, "mobile anchor." I get it, though. I had a teacher once who suggested I use my pinky that way. (Not exactly the way we are talking about here but in the context of a conventional grip.) Not so much as an anchor but as a gauge. ("You are here," so to speak.) It wasn't a matter of pressure but of light contact to keep the hand at a consistent distance from the strings.

[MarkRhodes]

the idea that the pinky works as a kind of guiding device so that 'the picking hand knows where it is... relative to the strings' is precisely the idea i was challenging above. there may be this sub-conscious dimension to it - but there's also a flat-out non-conscious dimension too - that is, a purely physical dimension. if you use the pinky right, it ensures your picking finger and thumb is almost precisely the same distance away from the strings all the time - and this is why picking improves IMMEDIATELY you get it right and let your hand go.

.

It seems to me that a flat-out non-conscious dimension of this should be easy to demonstrate either with a photograph or a drawing. (I'm not disagreeing with you here. I'm just not sure what you mean when you say 'when you get it right, thus and so follows.' I mean I do get it in the sense of a golf pro telling a novice 'when you get your swing right, you'll hit the ball flush, it will go much further and you'll feel fantastic,' but this in itself is of little help in getting one's swing right.)

As for keeping the pick almost precisely the same distance away from the strings all the time, I think this is what most people who have played seriously for a while do. They may have bad habits but they will be consistent about them. For example, when I played with a Jazz III pick and only let a smidgen of the tip show, I was staying very close to the strings all the time. (Otherwise, I would have missed 'em altogether!) But my picking was clunky, not smooth. Earlier, when I (like many a self-taught player of my era) anchored the heel of my palm on the bridge, that kept my pick the same distance from the strings all the time. In retrospect, I think it was too close! But it was very consistent.

[MarkRhodes]

JC Stylles' anchor is the middle segment of his pinky. That works pretty well for me. Looks like that's what Benson and Henry Johnson use, too, based on some investigative Googling.



You can see Benson's and JC Stylles' hands actually sliding up on the pick guard and making contact with the high-E when they're on the lower strings. If you're doing a super hard anchor and just cranking the wrist back to reach the low-E, it's going to be impossible to play fluidly.

This thread needs more vids and less postulation, though. I'll try to put something up later to show some of the adaptations I've made.

Evan, I like that term "middle segment" of the pinky. That was my understanding. This is directly opposed to the "pad (or tip) of the pinky" approach to anchoring.
I agree about the sliding thing too. It's easy to see George doing that some in the 'picking study' video.

I welcome more vids / photos too.

[Groyniad]

mark - of course we have all learned to keep our hands very nearly the same distance from the strings

its all in the 'very nearly'

if you use a part of you as what we're calling an 'anchor' - and the way you do it allows the physical dimension of the whole thing take over from the conscious one - your hand will be kept at effectively the SAME distance from the strings moment to moment and every time you pick up the guitar. and that - together with the total relaxation of the picking hand - is what makes the magic start to happen.

i'll do a vid about this if people really are interested. pictures allow for multiple interpretations just like words though.

(and whether its better to bend the pinky IN the way and use the first knuckle as the anchor point or to bend it OUT the way and use the pad or side of the pad is largely about how long your fingers are. if you've got longer than average fingers (benson, wilson and maybe jc too - don't know) then you want the anchoring device to be shorter to get an appropriate distancing from the strings.)

[Shadow of the Sun]

I'd be interested in a video, Groyniad.

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=Groyniad;525286]
if you use a part of you as what we're calling an 'anchor' - and the way you do it allows the physical dimension of the whole thing take over from the conscious one - your hand will be kept at effectively the SAME distance from the strings moment to moment and every time you pick up the guitar. and that - together with the total relaxation of the picking hand - is what makes the magic start to happen.

i'll do a vid about this if people really are interested. pictures allow for multiple interpretations just like words though.

QUOTE]
Yes, I'd be interested in such a video.
I still don't know what you mean by a person anchoring but not at the same distance from the strings. Anchoring with the heel of the palm on the bridge---an example I used---was always the same. Not 'very nearly' the same but the same. The bridge was always in the same place and the heel of my palm was always on the same place on the bridge.

I want to be clear. I agree that anchoring is crucial to this technique. It's just that I don't think it unusual that anchoring here keeps one's hand in the same place. I think that's a feature of anchoring, like a feature of gripping the pick is that you don't drop it when you play.

[m_d]

With all the anchoring discussion, I would caution people to not discount the fact that you have to have an actual motion from the arm that moves the pick between strings. If you anchor, don't just crank the wrist awkwardly to try to reach the bass strings. You are going to have to move the arm and slightly move the anchor. You want the hand position and picking motion to be pretty similar no matter which string you're over. Remember Tuck describing it as the needle and arm of a turn table.

So Tuck mentions that too, I didn't remember. Troy Grady does as well calling that process "tracking". Indeed if the hand starts to crank and have to reach up awkwardly by itself, soon enough it tightens up and the "mechanics" begin to fail...

[m_d]

the idea that the pinky works as a kind of guiding device so that 'the picking hand knows where it is... relative to the strings' is precisely the idea i was challenging above.

Not sure I understand (but I haven't read your earlier posts yet) - if I keep my pinky side "anchored" or rigidly fixed, that may work for the high strings, but I can't reach the low strings if anchored in that way let alone play a chord from the 6th or the 5th string. In my description of a "mobile anchor", some anchoring was assumed however - as you say, handwriting will get very hard absent any contact of the hand with the support; but resting it too hard will cramp the process too.

[m_d]

I'm just not sure what you mean when you say 'when you get it right, thus and so follows.' I mean I do get it in the sense of a golf pro telling a novice 'when you get your swing right, you'll hit the ball flush, it will go much further and you'll feel fantastic,' but this in itself is of little help in getting one's swing right.)

I like your golf analogy though. To me, picking should be treated no differently. Learning tennis of golf, from a competent pro but also an endless amount of material available from books, magazines or online, you can soon amass an enormous list of "tips". Some will work for you, some will not. But one day with persistence it will all gel together - it's a great moment. You have to interpret and "grok" the tips that resonate so they work for you so they become part of your game and you eventually just forget about them. If you look at tennis players, no two do exactly the same thing but all share the same fundamentals. We are fortunate to have that available for the guitar now as well, from different sources and threads like this one. Eventually we will all get there (hopefully!).

[Shadow of the Sun]

When I anchor with my pinkie, when I'm moving from high strings to low strings and vice-versa, I keep my pinkie in the same place even though my hand is moving higher and lower, being moved by the elbow.

Not sure if that's true to the "ideal" of the Benson technique, but I think it works for me.

[MarkRhodes]

Another question: how hard do you strike the strings (when playing single note jazz lines)?

I remember reading an interview with Ritchie Blackmore (-Deep Purple) when I was young. In it, he said that he used very light strings and had developed a very light touch. He played through big Marshall amps and was very loud, but he said his touch on the strings was very light. I think he said he used banjo strings early on. Or perhaps James Burton (-Ronnie Hawkins, Ricky Nelson, Elvis) had done this and in emulating him, Ritchie developed a light touch. With slinky strings one can easily bend them too far, going beyond the pitch sought and sounding awful.

Naturally, we archtop jazz players aren't playing super slinky strings. We don't have to worry that if we press a string too hard it will change pitch undesirably. But we are electric players who use amps and get our volume from them. (Herb Ellis once said that his guitars didn't sound good when played without an amp---that as a rule, laminate guitars don't sound good 'acoustic' but that that isn't a problem. It was a warning to novices: when you're trying one out in a store, you have to plug it in because the way it sounds unplugged is not such an electric guitar's 'natural' sound.) Herb stressed keeping picking motions small as possible.

I think that when JC Stylles talks about their being little difference between upstrokes and downstrokes (in terms of sound produced) with this technique that his downstrokes are not hard.

What do others think of this?

[Shadow of the Sun]

I can play either hard or soft with this technique.

When I'm playing with hard picking, it's striking through to rest on the higher string, or "above" the lower string on an upstroke.

When I'm playing with a soft picking technique, I don't even try to "pick" the strings. I try to "brush" them.

[MarkRhodes]

I can play either hard or soft with this technique.

Good point. I know what you mean. I can do that too. But more and more, I'm trying to play softer. It's amazing how easy it is to use more force than is needed (-or helpful) when playing guitar with a pick.