Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[edh]

Between #2 & #3 for me.

[3625]

I do have the 'banana thumb.' It makes it difficult to press with the upper-right tip of the thumb against the pick. (On the other hand, it's easy to keep it in place. That is, it never moves or gets tired of holding that position.) I can place it where I want but it's harder to adjust things so that that is where the pressure is coming from. For me, the thumb is locked and steady and the pressure is really from the index finger pressing back against the thumb!

I'd say your thumb shape would be an advantage - seems like the guys with banana thumbs tend to place more of the pad of their thumb on the pick instead of the tip - feels way more secure. If anything, the use of the upper-right tip is to compensate for not being able to comfortably place more of the pad on there.

Also, the pad players - I'm thinking Dan Wilson especially - seem to play with less of a pick angle than the JC approach - you can tell because their tone is brighter and snappier.

Despite looking at lots of GB footage, it's hard to tell exactly what he's doing - those two close-up pictures Destinytot posted a while back pretty clearly showed a good amount of the pad - it didn't look to me like it was strictly the tip, but it's still difficult to say for sure.

Check out from 5:13 - it looks a lot like those photos Destinytot posted:

Based on this clip (from 5:13, live in the club) you can see that the pick is clearly in the upper-right part of the thumb, but it looks to me like there's still a good amount of the pad there. Interestingly, George doesn't have a full-on banana thumb like other guys, but still, he must be able to comfortably have some backbend for his pad to sit there like that. If I copy that exact grip I feel the strain after a short while. Guys like Philco and JC use more of the upper-right tip and next to no pad. I'd be interested to find out what Peter Farrell does in this regard - but it's probably down to each individual's physiology in terms of how much backbend is there.

Also regarding hypermobility, or rather the spectrum of it - there's also backbend in the index finger which comes into play during upstrokes.

So, with the 'reverse' pick angle: the thumb has to flex slightly backwards during a downstroke, and the index slightly flexes backwards during an upstroke.

Even if you adopt a locking pick grip to stabilise the pick, there is still the pressure in those two directions as the pick makes contact with the string. So someone who is more hypermobile would most likely get a more 'flexy' snappy sound like George does. It might also allow for a looser pick grip because there is more pad and more natural finger flex to work in harmony with the looser grip.

If you only use the thumb tip and no pad, then it needs to be locked in more to get a clear sound, because there's less surface area of the thumb making contact with the pick - almost like the pick is rolling on a ball as opposed to resting securely on a flat surface. So you have to lock the pick more to stop it giving way too much when you strike the string, otherwise the attack is weak and flabby.

I'm up for ideas, or any corrections to anything I've said here - just putting it out there to discuss

[destinytot]

For me, backbend in the index finger is key to getting 'that sound' from a medium (I like Planet Waves .70mm) with this technique. I've never played using it with a full band, so I wouldn't know, but I think that's where I might use it.

Otherwise, personally, I'd adapt the technique to these principles: softness, organic movement, elimination of iron grip, and mechanical advantage.

I think anchoring the hand is an important principle specific to this technique, too. The rest - the business end, setting each string in motion - needs plenty of practice... until it becomes natural to allow the pick to do its work.

[MarkRhodes]

I'd say your thumb shape would be an advantage - seems like the guys with banana thumbs tend to place more of the pad of their thumb on the pick instead of the tip - feels way more secure. If anything, the use of the upper-right tip is to compensate for not being able to comfortably place more of the pad on there.

The banana thumb is a great advantage in that it locks easily. But for me, the angle was too steep and I had to find a way to decrease it. Still working on it...

Thanks for posting the "Benson Study" video. I've downloaded that for future reference.

I have to do some short videos for another project this weekend and may do a minute on My Pick Grip Today...

[Philco]

I'd say your thumb shape would be an advantage - seems like the guys with banana thumbs tend to place more of the pad of their thumb on the pick instead of the tip - feels way more secure. If anything, the use of the upper-right tip is to compensate for not being able to comfortably place more of the pad on there.

Also, the pad players - I'm thinking Dan Wilson especially - seem to play with less of a pick angle than the JC approach - you can tell because their tone is brighter and snappier.

Despite looking at lots of GB footage, it's hard to tell exactly what he's doing - those two close-up pictures Destinytot posted a while back pretty clearly showed a good amount of the pad - it didn't look to me like it was strictly the tip, but it's still difficult to say for sure.

Check out from 5:13 - it looks a lot like those photos Destinytot posted:

Based on this clip (from 5:13, live in the club) you can see that the pick is clearly in the upper-right part of the thumb, but it looks to me like there's still a good amount of the pad there. Interestingly, George doesn't have a full-on banana thumb like other guys, but still, he must be able to comfortably have some backbend for his pad to sit there like that. If I copy that exact grip I feel the strain after a short while. Guys like Philco and JC use more of the upper-right tip and next to no pad. I'd be interested to find out what Peter Farrell does in this regard - but it's probably down to each individual's physiology in terms of how much backbend is there.

Also regarding hypermobility, or rather the spectrum of it - there's also backbend in the index finger which comes into play during upstrokes.

So, with the 'reverse' pick angle: the thumb has to flex slightly backwards during a downstroke, and the index slightly flexes backwards during an upstroke.

Even if you adopt a locking pick grip to stabilise the pick, there is still the pressure in those two directions as the pick makes contact with the string. So someone who is more hypermobile would most likely get a more 'flexy' snappy sound like George does. It might also allow for a looser pick grip because there is more pad and more natural finger flex to work in harmony with the looser grip.

If you only use the thumb tip and no pad, then it needs to be locked in more to get a clear sound, because there's less surface area of the thumb making contact with the pick - almost like the pick is rolling on a ball as opposed to resting securely on a flat surface. So you have to lock the pick more to stop it giving way too much when you strike the string, otherwise the attack is weak and flabby.

I'm up for ideas, or any corrections to anything I've said here - just putting it out there to discuss

Hey 3625, great collection Vid! That clip at 5.13 kind of flipped me out when I saw it about a year ago. It was the first time I could really see from that side angle. Also it's the only time you see the relationship of the tip of the index to the tip of the thumb. I changed my grip when I saw this clip and it was a good step for me.
Now the whole tip of my thumb is pressing the pick in the top right corner and I really have a lot of pick hanging out sideways.
Managing to keep the index bent is the hard thing for me but once I get the thumb in the correct spot everything falls into place.
Not sure if I could get through a gig but I can practice for hours with the grip. My thumb pressure is light.

I notice that I'm naturally playing a lot of double down strokes when changing strings. I used to avoid this because I couldn't control the timing. With the angled pick and little finger locked to plate this is no longer a problem. I guess the little finger lock is like a "global positioning" system. Your brain knows where the pick is without having to reference your arm movement. Every positioning reference is simplified.
When you combine all the relaxation benefits with the rest strokes and double down strokes the equation changes and eventually you have this incredible fluid thing going on.
It's the combo though. I'm really into this rest stroke and "down down" on the string change vibe. Not ALL the time but it is a killer combo.
All aided by the flex of course. In fact the "flex" is the "enabler".

[3625]

Hey 3625, great collection Vid! That clip at 5.13 kind of flipped me out when I saw it about a year ago. It was the first time I could really see from that side angle. Also it's the only time you see the relationship of the tip of the index to the tip of the thumb. I changed my grip when I saw this clip and it was a good step for me.
Now the whole tip of my thumb is pressing the pick in the top right corner and I really have a lot of pick hanging out sideways.
Managing to keep the index bent is the hard thing for me but once I get the thumb in the correct spot everything falls into place.
Not sure if I could get through a gig but I can practice for hours with the grip. My thumb pressure is light.

I notice that I'm naturally playing a lot of double down strokes when changing strings. I used to avoid this because I couldn't control the timing. With the angled pick and little finger locked to plate this is no longer a problem. I guess the little finger lock is like a "global positioning" system. Your brain knows where the pick is without having to reference your arm movement. Every positioning reference is simplified.
When you combine all the relaxation benefits with the rest strokes and double down strokes the equation changes and eventually you have this incredible fluid thing going on.
It's the combo though. I'm really into this rest stroke and "down down" on the string change vibe. Not ALL the time but it is a killer combo.
All aided by the flex of course. In fact the "flex" is the "enabler".

That's hip Phil. Didn't realise you're using more real estate on your thumb than before. Also that you've switched to rest strokes, that is, I assumed you were doing free strokes previously.

I need to pay more attention to what my index is doing - especially in relation to whether it's bent forward, completely straight, backbend and overall angle of the joint. In other words what will work best.

Whereas GB's overall index finger angle looks at times to be 90 degrees'ish when playing the high E string (like on the 5:13 clip I just posted), AND with the top half straight (yet very flexible and relaxed) - it looks like Peter Farrell's index has a wider overall angle and his index slightly curls forwards a bit.

This is what I'm currently hypothesising regarding this: it's natural for George's index to appear straight because if you tend more to the hypermobile side of the spectrum, the finger naturally extends away. For people who don't have any hypermobility whatsoever, it's more relaxed to allow the index to curl forward, and then when you strike the string you still have a little bit of room for it to extend backwards.

It all depends on what each person's 'neutral' index finger state is, in terms of forward, straight or backwards IF you want the picking to be loose and flexy like GB or Perry Hughes for example. If you want a really immediate attack, then you're better to lock the grip more. GB probably can shift gears effortlessly between how much flex and how stiff the pick is depending on what he wants to achieve with the sound. Some fast passages sound very strong and immediate, whereas other times it's all loose, groovy and snappy.

I don't necessarily think George is totally hypermobile, rather his hands fall somewhere on the spectrum that is probably optimal in terms of the finger/thumb being able to freely move according to where the pick wants to go. People who are extreme one way or the other might face different problems in terms of allowing their finger/thumb joints to do what the pick requires in the moment.

As an aside, it's amazing how I get right into detailed posting when I should really be starting my assignment that's due in five days...

[destinytot]

As an aside, it's amazing how I get right into detailed posting when I should really be starting my assignment that's due in five days...

[3625]

What do we mean by GB doing reststrokes?

I've been looking at a bunch of clips and trying to figure out exactly how he strikes the string with the pick.

Check out the beginning of this clip and see the way he appears to throw his hand into the string to sound the note (with the anchored fingers on the pickguard acting like a hinge):

Now, see how he strikes the string when he does an isolated downstroke, that is, a downstroke followed by a brief pause. He throws his hand into the guitar to strike the string, then immediately lifts his hand away from the string in one fluid motion.

But we know it's not a freestroke - both from what nunocpinto said, as well as other footage we've seen. I was trying to copy the stroke in the above vid - initially just restricting myself to downstrokes - and think I possibly might be onto something(?):

He strikes the string and the pick naturally follows through to the adjacent string - the reststroke - but almost immediately is lifted up and away. The whole motion is like a sideways semi-circle. Very fast, fluid and relaxed. Feels more comfortable too, like you're not forcing the pick through the string in a way that's unnatural. It's a light reststroke. You get the volume and confident feel of the reststroke, in a way that feels light with a very relaxed grip.

From this way of doing single, isolated downstrokes, it seems to serve as a base for developing upstrokes (the opposite motion), then onto continuous 8ths etc. It sort of plugs you into his feel. The downstroke seems to be key to it all.

What do you guys think about this? Am I onto something here, or am I missing something?

[nunocpinto]

What do we mean by GB doing reststrokes?

I've been looking at a bunch of clips and trying to figure out exactly how he strikes the string with the pick.

Check out the beginning of this clip and see the way he appears to throw his hand into the string to sound the note (with the anchored fingers on the pickguard acting like a hinge):

Now, see how he strikes the string when he does an isolated downstroke, that is, a downstroke followed by a brief pause. He throws his hand into the guitar to strike the string, then immediately lifts his hand away from the string in one fluid motion.

But we know it's not a freestroke - both from what nunocpinto said, as well as other footage we've seen. I was trying to copy the stroke in the above vid - initially just restricting myself to downstrokes - and think I possibly might be onto something(?):

He strikes the string and the pick naturally follows through to the adjacent string - the reststroke - but almost immediately is lifted up and away. The whole motion is like a sideways semi-circle. Very fast, fluid and relaxed. Feels more comfortable too, like you're not forcing the pick through the string in a way that's unnatural. It's a light reststroke. You get the volume and confident feel of the reststroke, in a way that feels light with a very relaxed grip.

From this way of doing single, isolated downstrokes, it seems to serve as a base for developing upstrokes (the opposite motion), then onto continuous 8ths etc. It sort of plugs you into his feel. The downstroke seems to be key to it all.

What do you guys think about this? Am I onto something here, or am I missing something?

That's precisely what it is; you are absolutely spot on in your observations. Re-learning to play with this technique is very difficult (or at least has been for me) because it goes against what you already have ingrained in you brain/muscles through years of playing and practicing; besides not having the full information to begin with. I did lost a lot of time not anchoring properly, and avoiding to do the rest stroke thing; but now i have progressed more in just a few weeks than on the previous full year.

[Reg]

Hey philco... Confirmation... a little loose, but man it's interesting to see this much energy put into picking and hand, fingers, thumb etc... wow.
Articulations and creating a feel

[MarkRhodes]

When I watch GB play, it seems that the base of his thumb sits higher than his index finger.
When I pick, my index finger, esp the knuckle, sits higher than the base of the thumb. When I look at my hand in a mirror---so that I can see it from the audience's perspective, the top of my thumb is usually not visible at all. That's a big difference.

Somehow, the orientation of his hand is much different than mine is.

[Philco]

What do we mean by GB doing reststrokes?

I've been looking at a bunch of clips and trying to figure out exactly how he strikes the string with the pick.

Check out the beginning of this clip and see the way he appears to throw his hand into the string to sound the note (with the anchored fingers on the pickguard acting like a hinge):

Now, see how he strikes the string when he does an isolated downstroke, that is, a downstroke followed by a brief pause. He throws his hand into the guitar to strike the string, then immediately lifts his hand away from the string in one fluid motion.

But we know it's not a freestroke - both from what nunocpinto said, as well as other footage we've seen. I was trying to copy the stroke in the above vid - initially just restricting myself to downstrokes - and think I possibly might be onto something(?):

He strikes the string and the pick naturally follows through to the adjacent string - the reststroke - but almost immediately is lifted up and away. The whole motion is like a sideways semi-circle. Very fast, fluid and relaxed. Feels more comfortable too, like you're not forcing the pick through the string in a way that's unnatural. It's a light reststroke. You get the volume and confident feel of the reststroke, in a way that feels light with a very relaxed grip.

From this way of doing single, isolated downstrokes, it seems to serve as a base for developing upstrokes (the opposite motion), then onto continuous 8ths etc. It sort of plugs you into his feel. The downstroke seems to be key to it all.

What do you guys think about this? Am I onto something here, or am I missing something?

I'm so glad you focused on this. The rest stroke promotes "attitude" and "feel" and actually makes picking easier. But I think it needs to come after you get the pick grip together. I think one could be overwhelmed with trying to achieve these new techniques all at once.
At the risk of being over dramatic I would describe adopting the BT as learning how to breath in a different way. It's a really big undertaking. Especially when old habits are entrenched.

Not only are we struggling with a whole new......and very strange ......new grip but now we want to incorporate the rest stroke. Something the Gypsy players have been using since way back when.

But the rest stroke is part of the GB.
In my opinion.
From what I've seen.
From how it makes your lines "feel".
Because it makes complex lines easier.
It's another door opening up.

[Philco]

When I watch GB play, it seems that the base of his thumb sits higher than his index finger.
When I pick, my index finger, esp the knuckle, sits higher than the base of the thumb. When I look at my hand in a mirror---so that I can see it from the audience's perspective, the top of my thumb is usually not visible at all. That's a big difference.

Somehow, the orientation of his hand is much different than mine is.

Mark, we are in the same boat. There is no way I can make my grip look like GB. I think you can have the benefits without looking exactly the same. Peter Farrels grip doesn't look exactly like GB either and he has had lessons from the man himself. Everyone has a different hand shape.

Unless I read you incorrectly and you feel you are doing something not quite right?

[Philco]

Hey philco... Confirmation... a little loose, but man it's interesting to see this much energy put into picking and hand, fingers, thumb etc... wow.
Articulations and creating a feel

Hey Reg. are you referring to this shambolic but impassioned thread
If so then you must know by now that we are a little bit crazy........in a good way.

And of all people you know what we are trying to improve because your own right hand is all about groove.

There exists no text book that would explain how your own right hand does what it does.
I assume you simply made it do that because that's how you heard the music.

So then you would know how difficult it would be to describe .......not the grip or angle or other technical minutiae ......but the attitude and feel of it.

I think this why we are so verbose on this thread. Glad you checked in!

[destinytot]

There is a softness and ease to the flow of Dan's playing in this in this video:

[destinytot]

This was on the funk thread. I find it interesting to be able to observe the motion of Sheryl Bailey's picking arm when she plays fast:

I think I'm seeing similarity to the (more subtle) movement of Peter Farrell's arm when he plays fast (from 10:20):

[3625]

There is a softness and ease to the flow of Dan's playing in this in this video:

Yeah, this is crazy fast and Dan Wilson's articulation is strong and relaxed. Great player.

[3625]

When I watch GB play, it seems that the base of his thumb sits higher than his index finger.
When I pick, my index finger, esp the knuckle, sits higher than the base of the thumb. When I look at my hand in a mirror---so that I can see it from the audience's perspective, the top of my thumb is usually not visible at all. That's a big difference.

Somehow, the orientation of his hand is much different than mine is.

Regarding pick grip, I switch between copying JC's verbatim and trying other things out - I've probably got about half a dozen variations. So refining JC's grip over the last year I gradually worked out how to get the base of the thumb to sit higher - it's dependent on a lot of things that are hard to put into text.

That said however, there's lots of guys that naturally have that raised base of thumb - I saw a John Lee Hooker clip where he was playing without a pick using his thumb, but you could see that raised thumb base was a natural part of his physiology.

One suggestion I can give is to make sure that the pollicis muscles - the big ones that connect to the thumb - are not pulling downwards. Just let them raise up by their own accord. Hope this helps.

[Groyniad]

Based on this clip (from 5:13, live in the club) you can see that the pick is clearly in the upper-right part of the thumb, but it looks to me like there's still a good amount of the pad there. Interestingly, George doesn't have a full-on banana thumb like other guys, but still, he must be able to comfortably have some backbend for his pad to sit there like that. If I copy that exact grip I feel the strain after a short while. Guys like Philco and JC use more of the upper-right tip and next



from 5:13 can we see an anchored pinky-pad?

so not: side of pinky and 4th finger sort of brushing against the pick guard - but pinky-pad pressed onto pick guard

---

it starts to be a bit of a frickin mystery why we can't see pretty much exactly what he's doing in ANY of these clips - like you can almost see it but not quite - all the time?

by the time we get to like 1000 pages on this thread someone should somehow get in touch with the man himself and beg him to set us straight with pics and vid and a few paragraphs!!

a lot of the time i get the sense he's brushing the pick guard with pinky and fourth - not pressing part of the pad of the pinky onto the pick guard. i suppose peter f. could settle this question if asked really nicely by one of his students?

[nunocpinto]

a lot of the time i get the sense he's brushing the pick guard with pinky and fourth - not pressing part of the pad of the pinky onto the pick guard. i suppose peter f. could settle this question if asked really nicely by one of his students?

Groyniad, i wrote about those questions in my previous post here : Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

The important things are: the anchoring is fixed: if you don't do it you will never develop accuracy because you don't have a reference point; and that will also enable you to play from the wrist (slow/medium tempos) and harm (fast tempos) separately. The rest stroke and the flex will naturally take care of the other aspects of playing.

[Groyniad]

thanks for the reminder nunocpinto - really

[3625]

from 5:13 can we see an anchored pinky-pad?

so not: side of pinky and 4th finger sort of brushing against the pick guard - but pinky-pad pressed onto pick guard

---

it starts to be a bit of a frickin mystery why we can't see pretty much exactly what he's doing in ANY of these clips - like you can almost see it but not quite - all the time?

by the time we get to like 1000 pages on this thread someone should somehow get in touch with the man himself and beg him to set us straight with pics and vid and a few paragraphs!!

a lot of the time i get the sense he's brushing the pick guard with pinky and fourth - not pressing part of the pad of the pinky onto the pick guard. i suppose peter f. could settle this question if asked really nicely by one of his students?

Hi Groyniad - I'm referring to the pad of this thumb, not his fingers on the pickguard.

I agree a really good close up vid of GB would be good. Did you ever see that short video JC did - "from the top view"? That to me was as valuable as the entire 90min tutorial.

[destinytot]

pinky-pad pressed onto pick guard

I've just spent an hour trying that out while watching in the mirror. It seemed to work better with two fingers pressed onto the pick guard. I'm going to put a couple of blobs of Blu-Tack on the pick guard tomorrow and get to work. There'll Be Some Changes Made...

[3625]

I'm still at a loss to figure out what it means to place the pinky pad on the pickguard (too tired right now to correct that rather obvious example of alliteration) - at least when I look at Peter Farrell's right hand from his vids. From those vids it looks to me like the side of his pinky is pressed against the pickguard?

[destinytot]

I'm still at a loss to figure out what it means to place the pinky pad on the pickguard

I'm not sure either, but I think 'pad' here means 'tip'.