Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[Groyniad]

How did you keep the felt from moving (-bunching up)? That was what put me off of it. I use two scrunchies, which makes playing in F something of a challenge but otherwise it's a cheap, effective dampener, and easily removed. Unlike a strip of felt under the string, the scrunchies DO draw attention to themselves. I think this is why black is the most commonly used color. It tends to disappear from one's awareness. I lost my black one and am now using two others that came in the same set: white and aquamarine. This being South Florida, those are seen as Miami Dolphin (-football team) colors...

mark - i think its just a matter of getting the right thickness of felt - i've experimented with some different samples - including one that i folded over because it was too thin

there are two ways to change the amount of damping going on - by using a wider strip and by positioning the strip closer to the first fret and further from the nut

and i put it across the whole width of the fretboard - not just under a few of the strings...

btw - i dampened both my acoustic archtops for a few days and loved it - removed the felt, and loved it again - and now i've put the felt back on and i love the dampened effect AGAIN. it really makes the guitar sound a lot neater and more controlled and focused. herb ellis and jim hall did it in their pomp - so it has to be at least respectable.

and i am far too concerned about mere appearances to put a scrunchy on the end of my guitar (even in private!).

[MarkRhodes]

and i put it across the whole width of the fretboard - not just under a few of the strings...

btw - i dampened both my acoustic archtops for a few days and loved it - removed the felt, and loved it again - and now i've put the felt back on and i love the dampened effect AGAIN. it really makes the guitar sound a lot neater and more controlled and focused. herb ellis and jim hall did it in their pomp - so it has to be at least respectable.

and i am far too concerned about mere appearances to put a scrunchy on the end of my guitar (even in private!).

I put a felt strip from end to end too but it still bunched up. Perhaps a thicker piece of felt would not have done that.

I prefer the dampened sound. As for Herb, here's an excerpt from an instructional video (-it would now be a DVD). You can see the dampener and really tell its effect when he's playing a scale.

Then Herb talks about playing what you sing /singing what you play. A worthy bit of advice, and he mentions Benson as an example.

Then you get to hear him do it in a 'vamp' on G and one on C9. In his book "All the Shapes You Are" he has a vamp for every chord in the progression. (No backing, though, just his guitar.) I like that approach.

[ecj]

Here is a pic that shows the lump at the base of my thumb and also a fairly current shot of my hand position…..although I'm usually right on the front pick up. This is a Fender Medium not a thin. So this is pre pick change.
I also noticed that I can either arch my wrist over the bridge….more like a Gypsy Jazz player…or I can flatten out and actually mute with the big pad of the thumb muscle thus avoiding the ringing string thing.
I really think that this is a very personal journey or tech or whatever you want to call it. Totally determined by an individuals physiology.
Attachment 16577

Thanks, Philco. The thing I'm struggling with now is figuring out how to extend the tech into different playing demands. I'm pretty comfortably using small movements with single-note stuff, but I tend to get serious muscle confusion going between strumming, more complex comping, etc., and the single-note playing. My position actually looks a lot like yours (both left and right hands).

I hadn't thought of using the big chunk of thumb muscle for the muting rather than the side of the palm for muting. I'll give that a shot.

Good luck with the move!

[MarkRhodes]

I'm finally getting somewhere with this. Which is to say that I've made a small change with large, positive consequences. As with many such changes, they don't sound like much. In this case, I've moved the pick forward a bit so that the upper right tip of my thumb (-where JC says the pressure point should be) is closer to the tip of my index fingeer. (The pick, of course, lies between the two.) This immediately stopped my over-steep angle, taking it from near-90 degrees to 30-40 degrees, maybe a tad less than that.

I expect this will help my speed but right now I want accuracy. I want to stop having to practice things that should long ago have been flawless. But my technique was flawed, so my playing was flawed. Sometimes fleet and fine, but too many other times, neither.

So I'm excited as the new year looms. I think 'this could be the year I get to Pretty Darned Good.' I would like to get beyond that point, but first I have to reach it and right now I'm not there, though I've spent some moments in that territory and enjoyed the fleeting view....

It's been a very hectic month here. I suspect the same goes for most of us. But early in the new year, if not before, I'll make a short video to show where I'm at now. I think the grip is falling into place. Took long enough, eh? ;o)

[3625]

I'm finally getting somewhere with this. Which is to say that I've made a small change with large, positive consequences. As with many such changes, they don't sound like much. In this case, I've moved the pick forward a bit so that the upper right tip of my thumb (-where JC says the pressure point should be) is closer to the tip of my index fingeer. (The pick, of course, lies between the two.) This immediately stopped my over-steep angle, taking it from near-90 degrees to 30-40 degrees, maybe a tad less than that.

I expect this will help my speed but right now I want accuracy. I want to stop having to practice things that should long ago have been flawless. But my technique was flawed, so my playing was flawed. Sometimes fleet and fine, but too many other times, neither.

So I'm excited as the new year looms. I think 'this could be the year I get to Pretty Darned Good.' I would like to get beyond that point, but first I have to reach it and right now I'm not there, though I've spent some moments in that territory and enjoyed the fleeting view....

It's been a very hectic month here. I suspect the same goes for most of us. But early in the new year, if not before, I'll make a short video to show where I'm at now. I think the grip is falling into place. Took long enough, eh? ;o)

Hi Mark - it's ongoing isn't it? Good to hear you're making serious headway - I love it when everything clicks and you find yourself up a level from before. I just had a very big personal breakthrough about 4 days ago. Turns out my hand needed to be 'cupped' a fraction more, which has made all the difference with my little finger being securely anchored. Before that, I was sort of in limbo between anchored and floating - this was a wall I've been up against for months now, and I finally figured out what I needed to do to fix it. It's been a year since I switched over, and am getting close to having it at the level I was aiming for when I started this technique. My current grip/hand/arm/position is based off a combination of things I've learned from JC & Philco (Philco's passed on to me some invaluable insights which have really been a huge help, and for which I'm very grateful), as well as lots of great tips from SetEmUpJoe and ECJ, plus other things I've observed from different players and forum members. Thanks to all - this is a great thread.

I agree totally with Philco, in terms of eventually finding your own way with this tech - both in regards to small but significant differences from player to player - in conjunction with the fundamental aspects of the technique that are common to all the great players I've observed who use it. GB, JC, Rodney Jones, Dan Wilson, Adam Rogers, Peter Farrell etc. etc. are all fundamentally doing the same technique, but with subtle, noticeable differences in terms of pick grip, flex, hand/arm position etc.

I'll also post a vid in the new year demonstrating where I'm at with it currently.

Happy Hols!

[ecj]

Glad to see this thread is still going strong. In the spirit of continuing the group, here's a short clip checking in on my progress.

Rather than just ripping through licks, I'm now working on tunes. Here's the head, 2-choruses, and head out for Autumn Leaves. Kicked it off at about 230, and I think I slow down a bit by the end. Working on trying to stay relaxed, maintaining groove without external assistance (backing track or metronome), phrasing, soloing, etc.

It's way below my limit speed for patterns, licks, etc., but I still found it tough to keep everything together. I think I might drop a beat towards the end of the second chorus of the solo, but that's where I'm at. The picking hand at least looks pretty stable, and I don't lose my ability to control it. I think my dynamics get away from me a little, and I could probably relax more if I stopped hitting notes so hard.

Oh, and I forgot to flip the vid again, so it looks like I'm a lefty (which I'm not). Gotta stop doing that.

[Philco]

I concur re the heavy picking on the high strings every now and then.....only because it grabs the ear because of the slight buzz and nature of the microphone........but way more important to me was your great sense of time and pocket.
It seems like the hands are now a team.....if that makes sense.

i would argue that timing and groove are the beneficiaries of diligent attention to technique.
Ultimately they are the heart of the matter.

[ecj]

I concur re the heavy picking on the high strings every now and then.....only because it grabs the ear because of the slight buzz and nature of the microphone........but way more important to me was your great sense of time and pocket.
It seems like the hands are now a team.....if that makes sense.

i would argue that timing and groove are the beneficiaries of diligent attention to technique.
Ultimately they are the heart of the matter.

Thanks, Philco. I still have a long way to go, but I'm happy with the progress I've made this last year. For the first time I at least feel like I am in a good starting position, if that makes sense.

[destinytot]

mark - i think its just a matter of getting the right thickness of felt - i've experimented with some different samples - including one that i folded over because it was too thin

there are two ways to change the amount of damping going on - by using a wider strip and by positioning the strip closer to the first fret and further from the nut

and i put it across the whole width of the fretboard - not just under a few of the strings...

btw - i dampened both my acoustic archtops for a few days and loved it - removed the felt, and loved it again - and now i've put the felt back on and i love the dampened effect AGAIN. it really makes the guitar sound a lot neater and more controlled and focused. herb ellis and jim hall did it in their pomp - so it has to be at least respectable.

and i am far too concerned about mere appearances to put a scrunchy on the end of my guitar (even in private!).

Seasons greetings!

I thought muting with the side of a finger worked fine, but now I'm not so sure...

I have four guitars: a 7-string (Eastwood) that I don't use; a fine 18" semi (Sonntag Augusta); a cheap acoustic archtop (Godin 5th Ave) with extremely heavy-gauge strings; and a beat-up nylon-strung guitar which I play quietly at night using the fleshy pads of my fingers - except my pinky, which has a long nail. (I only realised recently that there's a corn on the side of my thumb - not surprising, because I've played bossa nova guitar regularly for almost thirty years.)

While playing the nylon last night, I found myself wanting to play lines - faster than usual, and with a pick. After trying several, I chose a Clayton 1.90mm and played for what seemed like hours last night, and then again this morning.

I'm pleased to say this pick works well very for me on the nylon, and I intend to start trying it on gigs after the hols. I already get a pretty good live sound on the nylon using an LR Baggs p/u and the preamp of my Evans RE200 amp with a line to a PA, but I've just got a clip-on condenser mic with an adjustable gooseneck for my acoustic archtop (a great tip from Jonathan Stout's swing guitar blog) and I've already tested it on the nylon - it's perfect.

An observation about picks/picking as an aside: I've also just tried the Clayton 1.90mm on my semi and on my acoustic archtop, and it sounded great on both. However, I think this is because I've been using a Fender Thin on gigs; focusing on eliminating rigidity - the iron, vice-like grip - from 'the clamp' in the search for tone, getting subtle and variable degrees of play in the flex and the right sound from the amp and PA. I really like the bright sound I'm getting live, and also the degree of control over the pulse (I consciously think of Oscar Moore, rather than than GB). I intend to keep using it. While I do aspire to making the best possible use of the Clayton and of my thumb (because I do believe that eliminating rigidity and excessive tension means this technique can be adapted to the requirements or constraints of different settings and situations), playing in public - not at all like playing at home - has convinced me of two things: (i) that working with the flex becomes far easier with a thin pick, and (ii) that good use of gain and EQ matters. On the other hand, I suspect that what I practise on the nylon (with a Clayton 1.90mm) might be transferable to playing on my other guitars in terms of improved precision, dexterity and tone - "One never knows, do one?" (as Mr Waller would say).

So back to the dampening...

I liked what I was playing on the nylon, but as my muting technique doesn't work very well, I tried the tip in this thread. Not having any felt, I used a couple of layers of black electrical insulation tape - and I was amazed. I rather expected a negative effect on chords with open strings, but there was none. So I tried it on the acoustic archtop this morning - astounding. I've yet to try it on the semi, but I'm going to do so out of curiosity.

Thank you!

[destinytot]

Sounding great, Evan!

[destinytot]

Dapper and dandy string dampening with the Amazing Cross-Braced Elasticated Hairband - "Quite stylish!" (as TV's Frasier would say...)

[ecj]

Dapper and dandy string dampening with the Amazing Cross-Braced Elasticated Hairband - "Quite stylish!" (as TV's Frasier would say...)

Very creative! I'm going to give that a shot.

[MarkRhodes]

Dapper and dandy string dampening with the Amazing Cross-Braced Elasticated Hairband - "Quite stylish!" (as TV's Frasier would say...)

That looks nifty! It also looks snug. One of the drawbacks of scrunchies is that they don't apply even amounts of pressure to each sting. They kink up a bit in places. Which is why I use two. That is not ideal though I can live with it. But your approach seems neater and less invasive of the first fret...

[destinytot]

Easy to make fine adjustments, too...

Groyniad's tips have been game-changers; first his meticulous articulation of the 'flex' concept, and now this simple - yet by no means simplistic - little string-dampening tip, which has left me free to concentrate my efforts on connecting the dots and producing the beautiful sounds I hear.

Thank you to everyone on this forum.

[destinytot]

As easy as standing on one leg...

[MarkRhodes]

Back to picks for a moment. I got a dozen D'Andrea mediums and like them. They're not THAT different from Fender Mediums but they feel less slick to me, so my grip is more secure. I like that.

[Philco]

Thought I'd hit the refresh button and share this.

Arguably one of the most revealing videos of GB's right hand.
I mean……you can actually see it in action from a side view.
This video (from his instructional video) made me stop a re evaluate what I was doing.
Things I learned from this.

• His pinky and third finger are really "quite" locked to the pick guard.
This means that the rest of his hand has to move…..not so much the wrist….the rest of the hand.
Watch the hand extend when it has to. There's that "pointing" thing.
This is happening because he leaves those fingers locked to the guard. Yes they eventually move a little…..but only when they have to. He is "reaching across". This is very important because it means smaller movement of the wrist.

• Note the thumb and index actually flexing sometimes to almost "pinch" out a note. Only sometimes.
This is an even smaller movement than the "hand reach"
So from large to small movement we have 1/wrist 2/ hand stretch 3/ thumb and index pinch.

• Pick Flop. Wow look at that pick move! Now it's a FM so it can't flex. This is "Flop" for want of a better word. It's moving between his fingers.
This is a game changer. If you grip your pick tightly you simply can't do this. He must be gripping lightly.
That changes everything.
The groove goes from his wrist to his hand to his thumb to his pick. It's ALL moving.

• Economy picking. At the very start is a 2/5 lick chromatically heading down to the 3rd of the 5 chord. After that note then he plays across the strings in a single downward motion. In other words he uses a common down stroke across 2 strings.
The thing is it's not a triplet sweep. He does this a lot. Like Gypsy players do.

• Triplet sweeps……well we knew that.

Evaluate for yourselves and see what you make of it.

[nick1994]

Philco, video won't play says it's private

[Philco]

Sorry…..rookie error.

[M-ster]

Thanks, Phil. I really appreciate everyone's contribution to this thread - but especially yours. Thanks for continuing the discussion.

[MarkRhodes]

Thought I'd hit the refresh button and share this.

Arguably one of the most revealing videos of GB's right hand.
I mean……you can actually see it in action from a side view.
This video (from his instructional video) made me stop a re evaluate what I was doing.
Things I learned from this.

• His pinky and third finger are really "quite" locked to the pick guard.


Evaluate for yourselves and see what you make of it.

That is about as up-close-and-personal a view of his right hand in action as we are likely to get. Thanks, Phil!

I have a question about the relation of the thumb to the index finger and the index finger in relation to the pick. Here, the thumb seems to be pressed toward---let us say---the back end of the top joint of the index finger. (I have experimented lately with moving the thumb closer toward the tip of the index.) With this grip, does the fleshy pad at the tip of the index feel / touch the pick at all? (I played for a a long time with the pick running down the top edge of the index, with the point of the pick jutting over the tip of the index. I'm used to some sensation there.) It seems to me that in this position of George's, the tip of his index isn't touching, pressing, or moving the pick at all.

By the way, I'm not saying that is bad or good. I'm not even saying I am seeing this right. I'm checking my vision, so to speak, by asking if others see the same thing? (Also, for those gripping like George does here, are you aware of feeling the pick with the tip of the index or not?)

When I play again later today, I'll put the third finger and pink on the pickguard, see what that does.

[ecj]

Thanks for the slow-mo shot, Philco. I totally agree re: the fourth and third anchor. That was something I saw JC Stylles doing, too.

In regards to the "pointing" thing. Henry Johnson has a very exaggerated version of this going on. Benson himself taught Johnson his picking technique, so I'm thinking that those two guys are probably good ones to look at if you're interested in seeing how the technique adapts to different hands/arms. Johnson has a straighter thumb, so it's often easier for me to see how it works when I watch him than Benson, who has that hitchhiker thumb thing that I don't.

Check it out:

Totally agree re: the lighter grip, too. I've been playing with different picks to find a tone that I like, and am enjoying using a heavier pick. I find it forces me to keep a better playing position and have a lighter grip than the lighter picks which I tend to just use like cudgels.

The other thing about both Benson and Johnson is that their wrists aren't nearly as arched as mine. It looks more comfortable, but I can't figure out how to do it, exactly.

[destinytot]

(Also, for those gripping like George does here, are you aware of feeling the pick with the tip of the index or not?)

I'd say no, not with the tip (but with the pad - as labelled here Finger).

[MarkRhodes]

I'd say no, not with the tip (but with the pad - as labelled here Finger).

Got it. Thanks.

[3625]

3rd finger anchor - just had one of those 'why didn't I notice that before' moments. I've watched that clip so many times on slo-mo during the last year... I wonder if it's a hard anchor, or is it just loosely hanging there? Is the third finger tip hooked onto the high E string most of the time Phil? Not just the pinky?

Re: the pick flop - where it temporarily leaves the finger then comes back. The slo-mo clip of Perry Hughes that Destinytot posted shows the same thing, but even more pronounced.

I've been experimenting with it flopping for a while now, but the problem I've been facing is that the pick tends to get caught on the string and I have to force it through, which for me causes tension further up my forearm into my elbow. Especially if my hand isn't cupped a lot - and I notice GB is probably the least cupped of most of the guys who use this tech. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong here - open to ideas here from anyone. Should make a vid soon to show you guys.

What strikes me about watching GB is how natural he looks when picking - it's a far more complex combination of movements than other 'Benson' pickers (good players) because every part of his hand/arm/fingers is engaged in a way that isn't rigid or clinical. At times it looks like he's securely anchored, then a few notes later it seems like he's mini-floating, then back to being anchored. Sometimes the pick is loose and floppy, other times secure with the notes strongly popping out. Still plenty of mysteries here.

Also, regarding thumb - do you think GB is using the upper pad of his thumb and not the top right tip? Photos and videos I've seen suggest he's using the pad which is different to what a lot of other guys are doing. This could be a big deal - but also strongly dependent on an individual's physiology. If you're able to comfortably place your pad (not the tip) on the pick, to me it seems that you can get a more secure grip and not have to squeeze the pick so hard. GB's thumb doesn't seem to bend back that much compared to other guys, but rather the pad thing might depend more on the ratio of thumb length in comparison to fingers - maybe some people have longer thumbs?

Finally - something Phil once raised with me before that I've been wondering about:

Hard to describe but what is the sideways slant of the pick with GB? "\" "l" or "/" ? (looking from the top down: headstock<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>bridge) - this is different to the 45/90 degree pick angle thing - where is the pick in terms of being 'sideways'? For example I noticed SetEmUpJoe uses a "\" sideways pick angle - it slants more towards the headstock. Looks to me like GB uses a combination of "\" and "l". This is something that's difficult to tell from videos but could be really important - any thoughts?