Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[ecj]

Speaking of muting: does anyone know if heavier strings are less prone to feedback? I used to feedback something terrible, and was pretty worried about the muting thing with the switch to Benson picking.

I played a very loud gig with a drummer in a hotel hallway the other night that was basically a cave. Think a lot of exposed marble and very little dampening. Amp was on the floor due to a rushed setup.

This is the kind of situation that would've resulted in horrible feedback in the past, but for some reason I didn't have any string noise or feedback. I'm wondering if the switch to 0.14s has made an effect on that.

[MarkRhodes]

. I'm wondering if the switch to 0.14s has made an effect on that.

I've never tried those. I don't think my guitar neck would handle that much strain. What's the low E on a set of 0.14s?

[monk]

Here's an auditory tidbit for your listening pleasure. Sinatra, Benson and the Quincy Jones Big Band playing After You've Gone.

The Chairman is up to his usual late-life mucking around with the lyrics but Benson's playing and Jones' arrangement makes it all worth it. Especially to hear Benson tackle a mainstream, old school standard.

Enjoy

[ecj]

I've never tried those. I don't think my guitar neck would handle that much strain. What's the low E on a set of 0.14s?

0.55. They're actually really comfortable. Caveat, I have a 25.5" scale guitar.

[3625]

I think one of the things I like the most about this pick grip, is that it seems to work with a lot of different motions.

To get my standard grip going quickly, I need a lot of warmup, and I have to be ultra precise with making sure that my picking motion on one string is the "door knob" wrist rotation without tension. Then I have to be careful to use elbow motion to cross strings without letting any tension bleed into the plucking motion. It's a pain in the ass and really inconsistent, even though I can get things moving almost as fast as with Benson picking on a good day.

With the Benson grip it just doesn't seem to matter as much. Sometimes I get a little sloppy and use elbow motion aggressively. Sometimes I do the "door knock" wrist oscillation thing. Sometimes more the "door knob" rotation. Sometimes it feels like Philco is saying and is mostly just coming from my thumb and finger base joints. Doesn't really seem to interrupt my feel or ability to get the notes out no matter what, which is awesome.

I think the big thing for me is that my shoulder is relaxed when I Benson pick no matter what. With standard grip I'm always fighting the war of tension with my right shoulder. Lose vigilance for one second and it all falls apart.

Agreed- I'm still getting closer to a 'final version' of how to approach this (which muscle groups, how much wrist etc.), especially given that amongst the well known Benson pickers there are slight variations in their technique. JC said that he slightly altered his style from George's in order to get his own sound - so there's some leeway in how to do this, so long as you've got the basic principles down.

In terms of clinical precision and clear note definition at very fast speeds, JC is by far one of the best I've heard, whereas others I've noticed use a looser, flappy tech that grooves and pops the note a particular way. Depends what feel and sound you're going for.

Sometimes I briefly go back to traditional picking (for about 5 mins) to compare the difference - it's not an exaggeration to say that playing around 200-210bpm with Benson picking feels like 160bpm with traditional, in terms of the effort required.

[3625]

I think some people have trouble with the idea of this because they have a THEORY of picking and this seems to violate a tenet of it.

This is something I have to keep reminding myself about when practicing - there are still many 'rules' of picking which work for traditional grip, that don't necessarily apply for Benson picking and vice versa. An example of this is using thumb/index vs. wrist - it's a fairly common view with traditional picking that for efficiency you don't move your thumb/finger muscles much and use the wrist instead. Philco's insight on this matter for Benson picking is that more or less the opposite is true - you look at George play and his thumb and index are moving all over the place!

So it's taking me a bit of time to figure out what I should keep from my old way of picking, and what I should throw out - evolutionary hangovers.

[JazzOnSix]

This is the kind of situation that would've resulted in horrible feedback in the past, but for some reason I didn't have any string noise or feedback. I'm wondering if the switch to 0.14s has made an effect on that.

Evan, I don't know if the heavier strings contribute to less feedback, but I get very little and here's what I've been using on my 1970 Gibson Super 400 for at least the past 35 years:



The strings have an unbelievable tone and are amazingly pliable for what is called a "flat wound" set. They also last forever, which is why LaBella includes an extra pair of plain steels for the two top strings (.014 and .018). From the company:

"La Bella Strings Electrics Black Nylon Tape Wound sets are the secret behind the sound of the best professional jazz players in the world. These strings are handcrafted with a proprietary black nylon tape, wound on a hexagonal steel core. The result is a flat and extremely smooth string, which produces a warm, jazzy sound with zero finger noise. The Electrics Black Nylon Tape Wound strings are ideal for archtops and hollow-body guitars."

Subjective company opinion aside, I had a phone conversation several years ago with Bob Archigian, who's been with LaBella for decades. Bob told me that GB once ordered 60 sets of the 800s because he was so blown away with the sound. Of course, this was years before his endorsement deal with Thomastik-Infeld, which if I had to choose any other string it would be one of their sets. Henry Johnson uses them, too.

What keeps me with the LaBellas is the fact that they sound so good for chords, octaves, double-stops, fingerstyle work and walking bass line accompaniments, plus there's no comparison to any flat wound (including the TI's) if you dig blues half as much as I do. The wrapped G string is remarkably pliable for string bending, so I can use the same strings and guitar for Stormy Monday as I do for any of the bebop, swing, ballad and latin classics.

Bob also told me that they finally had to raise the price, because the wrapped strings last so long that players would replace them every few years, and I can attest to that. It's the plain steels that will lose their intonation and have to be replaced more frequently. The only issue at times is whether the nut and tuning machines can accept the low E string, but I've had no problem on the Gibson or my Ibanez GB10.

If you or anyone does decide to try them (best price is at Elderly Instruments), stay away from the light set because the tone is nowhere near as robust as this one. Btw, don't be intimidated by the gauge, since the wrap contributes to the measurement but adds zero tenson to the metal core. All for now..

[MarkRhodes]

Here's an auditory tidbit for your listening pleasure. Sinatra, Benson and the Quincy Jones Big Band playing After You've Gone.

Thanks, Monk. That was a hoot.

[MarkRhodes]

Evan, I don't know if the heavier strings contribute to less feedback, but I get very little and here's what I've been using on my 1970 Gibson Super 400 for at least the past 35 years:



The strings have an unbelievable tone and are amazingly pliable for what is called a "flat wound" set. They also last forever, which is why LaBella includes an extra pair of plain steels for the two top strings (.014 and .018). From the company:

Thanks, Mark S. I had heard of those strings but hadn't heard this much about them.

[MarkRhodes]

0.55. They're actually really comfortable. Caveat, I have a 25.5" scale guitar.

You know, I have no idea what the scale length of my guitar is. I don't know if it's 15" or 16" either (or something else). You would think I would know what all such terms indicate, but I do not...

[monk]

You know, I have no idea what the scale length of my guitar is. I don't know if it's 15" or 16" either (or something else). You would think I would know what all such terms indicate, but I do not...

Mark,
Log on to the manufacturer's website and look for the page dedicated to your guitar. Look for specs. That will give you everything you need to know about your instrument.

For archtops these days, the most common scale is 24.75" or 25.50". Most common body size is 16" or 17" measured across the widest part of the lower bout. Most common nut width is 1 11/16".

[monk]

Here's is a photo with what appears to be Joey Defrancesco, George Benson playing a Les Paul and Ron Eschete on the right.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark,
Log on to the manufacturer's website and look for the page dedicated to your guitar. Look for specs. That will give you everything you need to know about your instrument.

For archtops these days, the most common scale is 24.75" or 25.50". Most common body size is 16" or 17" measured across the widest part of the lower bout. Most common nut width is 1 11/16".

Thanks, Monk.
I went to the Ibanez site. My guitar---the Artcore AF85---is no longer made, so I picked one that looked similar (AF75) and had the same number of frets 22. (The AF85 has bigger frets than the AF75 but that need not concern us here.)
The scale length is 24. 75". Width at nut is given as 43mm

The body dimensions are: length: 18.7/8" width: 14 1/2 " max depth: 3 5/8"

Again, that's for an AF85. I think my AF85 should be pretty much the same.

[JazzOnSix]

Thanks, Mark S. I had heard of those strings but hadn't heard this much about them.

Sure thing, Mark. Speaking of strings, choice of pick and hand positions, check out my spin on Freight Trane (Bird's Blues in Ab by pianist Tommy Flanagan).

As I'm sure you and others know, this tune was originally released on the epic 50's quintet recording that featured Kenny Burrell with John Coltrane. You'll hear the tone I'm referring to in the fingerstyle rubato intro based on those changes, before I switch to the pick (HJ ProPlec) when the band kicks in for the head and solo. If you listen carefully to bars 9-12 in that intro, especially the tremolo treatment of the turnaround chords using subs done in contrary motion, you'll hear why it's so critical for me to maintain a more traditional hand position. There are times when I need to quickly go back and forth between the fingers and pick.

With all due respect, guys like GB and my good friend Henry are not fingerstyle players by nature, and if that were the case for me I'd be far more open to that style of picking. As you so appropriately said before, "Whatever works.." ;-)

[Patrick2]

Here's is a photo with what appears to be Joey Defrancesco, George Benson playing a Les Paul and Ron Eschete on the right.

A Les Paul with a dot finger board? Hmmm . . Looks like an '84 Studio Standard. They came with dots, no binding on the FB and tobacco sun burst. I doubt that George would own something like that. I wonder if it was a house guitar at Steamers for players who might stop by to sit in? Just goes to show ya . . a true player can play jazz on just about any guitar.

[ecj]

Thanks for the info on the LaBella strings, Mark. I have a couple sets of TIs (which I love) left, but after that, I'll give the LaBellas a shot.

Great playing on Freight Trane.

[MarkRhodes]

Sure thing, Mark. Speaking of strings, choice of pick and hand positions, check out my spin on Freight Trane (Bird's Blues in Ab by pianist Tommy Flanagan).

Great playing (and tone), Mark S. So glad you're hanging out here now! You're a great addition to the Forum.

[destinytot]

Re. using fingers with this picking style, I'm now comfortable alternating between fingers (2, 3 and 4) and a pick. It's perfectly 'doable'.

[destinytot]

But the big change for me has been relaxing the pick grip so it flexes and flaps more like GB, which I've noticed has made my swing feel looser.

Sounds great, man!

[JazzOnSix]

Thanks for the info on the LaBella strings, Mark. I have a couple sets of TIs (which I love) left, but after that, I'll give the LaBellas a shot.

Great playing on Freight Trane.

My pleasure, Evan. Thanks for the kind words. Since you're a vocalist, as long as your guitar can accept the low E I'm sure that you'll enjoy the LaBellas. When I recorded "An Evening To Remember" (later released as "Tenderly") with saxophonist Dennis Marcellino in the mid-90's, I did all of the rhythm accompaniments and solos fingerstyle using those strings on my Gibson archtop. Three of the tunes (Autumn Leaves, All the Things You Are and Someday My Prince Will Come) featured walking bass lines with chords. The TI's are excellent, but if I thought they were superior I'd be using them.

Great playing (and tone), Mark S. So glad you're hanging out here now! You're a great addition to the Forum.

Thanks! I only wish that I had more time to drop on by because I have so much more to share, on a number of different fronts. All in good time. I'm pleased that you guys have been enjoying my contributions.

[destinytot]

I've started using Planet Waves shell medium (.70mm) picks. I've used the same pick on different guitars and on different types of gig over the last few weeks, and they're great - the ease of Fender Thin, the dynamic range of Fender Medium, the tone of Clayton acetal... just the feel and (quiet) sound I like from the pick as it flexes and snaps across strings.

[MarkRhodes]

I've started using Planet Waves shell medium (.70mm) picks. I've used the same pick on different guitars and on different types of gig over the last few weeks, and they're great - the ease of Fender Thin, the dynamic range of Fender Medium, the tone of Clayton acetal... just the feel and (quiet) sound I like from the pick as it flexes and snaps across strings.

I haven't tried those. Just added them to my Wish List at Amazon.

On the home front, last night I switched back from Pro-Plec 1.5s to Fender Mediums. The Pro-Plec is a good pick but more "clacky" than I'd like (-when I'm playing unamplified, which is how I tend to practice). I get more dynamics from the FMs too.

[3625]

I like the Planet Waves 70mm too, both the shell and pearloid ones. The Ibanez GB pick is really good - the straight sides do provide less resistance against the string, and they have excellent grip. The tone is slightly sharper/brighter than a normal 351 (Fender) shape. Given that they're more expensive and harder to source, I filed some regular Fenders to copy the shape. Worked pretty well - I lay some fine sandpaper down flat on the table and ran the pick across (both sides), then buffered the edges afterwards to get rid of any rough spots.

[MarkRhodes]

The Ibanez GB pick is really good - the straight sides do provide less resistance against the string, and they have excellent grip.

Jon, I'm not sure what you mean by 'the straight sides.' Do you mean they have less curve than Fender Mediums? A sharper point?

[3625]

Jon, I'm not sure what you mean by 'the straight sides.' Do you mean they have less curve than Fender Mediums? A sharper point?

The sides of the GB pick have less curve than a Fender - the GB is more triangular. However, the GB's don't have a particularly sharp point - a little sharper than a Fender, but nothing like a jazz iii or picks that metal players use. Basically the GB picks are the same as a Fender, except the side curves are straightened out. By running a Fender straight across some flat sandpaper, you pretty much end up with the exact shape of the GB. I haven't got time right now to photo the one I made, but I'll post it sometime on the weekend for you to look at, plus how I sand/file them.