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You got me there Mark. I have another 2 tins of picks on the way. It stops me spending money on guitars! I get the purchase satisfaction without the big spend.
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I have got all the different coloured Fenders but my comparison is flawed because my coloured Fenders came from an Ebay sale and I suspect that they are not genuine Fenders. I think they came from Singapore.
Anyway they are vastly different from the real FM browns. The real ones have a really high pitched scrape sound when used on an angle and my coloured ones don't have this at all. Plus the point is different on the fakes….more rounded…..and the bevel is different.
So in actual fact I have not tried a genuine Fender blue, green or red.
I do have some cartons of real Fender Whites and Blacks and they are totally different from the Browns.
You will know the very second you try one.
It does depend on the angle you use though. I think I'm usually at about 45 degrees. If you were more "face on" then I think it would be hard to tell the difference in attack sound between the different Fenders.
Remember I spouted that the clown vomit Fenders weren't that great for the BT? Well guess what plectrum George uses on his instructional video?
So much for MY expertise!
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08-27-2014 09:57 AM
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You know your stuff. I've seen a lot of pictures George playing guitar and never saw the clown vomit one. Could that have been used to make his pick stand out in the video? (I have no idea, but he doesn't seem to be using that mix-of-colors in any of the photos or vids posted here....) Originally Posted by Philco
But you know, if the other colors actually make no difference, then staying with the brown is fine with me. The shop I go to always has the brown ones.
However, I was thinking of buying them by the bag---heck, at Amazon you can get 12 dozen brown ones (144 picks) for $29.28 (US). That could last me the rest of my life!
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08-27-2014, 10:47 AM #728destinytot Guest
I go back to work on Friday, but I'll be doing so with a spring in my step - perhaps I should say flex!
Several factors are coming together nicely (mostly, posture and 'ears' - focusing on rhythmically-strong counter-lines to the bass, but not directly on technique).
I think the reason I'm very comfortable playing chords and improvising single lines with Fender Thins on my semi is that it's a very responsive instrument.
Fender Mediums are helping me get the best sound I can out of my acoustic (the best available to me at the time), but Fender Thins are opening a whole new world of possibilities on my semi. (They've even prompted me to try playing 70s soul melodies in block chords, and also to try using my thumb instead of a pick - which actually sounds OK at slow tempos).
Back to practising rhythm (trying to blend with the Basie band on vinyl), listening for counterpoint and hearing lines.
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Heard from JC. He is traveling for two weeks beginning Saturday (-30 August) and won't be able to take any more students for coaching during that time.
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Who talked about left hand muting?
Someone in this thread talked about left hand muting but I didn't get it at the time. I'm not sure I would get it now, but I'd like to take another look... Who was it talking about that????
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Philco's mentioned it here and there Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Thanks for the answer. But I don't think it's Philco I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about someone saying that we were paying too much attention to the right hand and not enough to the left hand, something about how to mute with the left hand. What I remember is that I wasn't sure what he was getting at.That's what bothers me now.... Originally Posted by 3625
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I believe it might have been richb.
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Hi Mark. I have touched on this can of worms. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Forget about Benson Picking for a moment.
I noticed when I was playing that on certain phrases I would leave behind a ringing string. Repeatedly…..ad nausea.
This was before I started the BT.
It's easy to see what was causing this. A finger brushing against the 4th string as it was leaving the 3rd string.
Sloppy technique basically. Incorrect hand position? Fingers laying over too much? etc, etc...
Most of this can be fixed by correcting or stopping bad habits.
Or you could just cover up all that stuff by resting the side of your palm on the bridge.
When I changed to BT I was really honing in on any rogue strings but I noticed that in some situations I couldn't stop the strings dead.
As 3625 mentioned there are some notes….particularly on bass strings over harmonic (7th fret/12th fret) that just want to keep ringing.
If you were palm muting you would be able to kill it.
I noticed that I never heard GB with ringing strings. Go figure.
Either you just can't hear them because they aren't loud enough or he has a way of stopping them.
I think both these things are in play.
Also old flat wound strings are fairly dead and it takes some energy to get them going. Round wounds would be different.
Call me suspicious but I note that on his instructional video that he is barely amplified. Almost acoustic. Was that on purpose so we wouldn't hear the ringing strings?
But I also noticed on that video that he has a couple of ways to mute but with the left hand.
There was one phrase that included a fast chromatic run down on the bass strings and then a quick arpeggio across 3 strings. It was a 251 lick.
I rather liked it and I have the accompanying booklet so I played through it.
There was no way I could play it without the bass string ringing when I left it. Even with my guitar turned off I could hear it.
How did George do it?
I watched closely and figured it out.
As he was leaving the 5th string he automatically brushes or touches it with a free finger. You have to watch closely but he does it.
There always seems to be a finger spare to just kill the string that may ring.
This technique sometimes makes his hand appear to be "laying over" the strings. Not sitting upright like a classical player. You actually want your hand to be "resting" on strings that are adjacent to the one you are leaving.
I also noticed that from time to time you would see his thumb pop over the bass strings to mute.
I think it's something he's naturally done from playing so many gigs. Like when some of us were rock players and played at high volume with a lot of drive. It became second nature to keep the string noise down. I think it's second nature for GB to do it with his left hand.
I've noticed that I have started to do this……just naturally. You get a sense of when you are in danger territory (of strings ringing) and you start to compensate.
There was a stage I went through using BT where I was ready to drop it because of the ringing strings…….remember I changed to gripping the plectrum with 2 fingers? (hey I notice that his how Jesse Van Ruller holds his pick…..exactly)
But the BT was just too liberating. Too relaxed.
I decided to stop stressing about it and just deal with it over time.
A couple of things worth thinking about.
Plenty of people use the BT and don't have issues.
Does it really matter if a few strings ring every now and then?
It's clearly not a deal breaker.
Although you do run the real risk of having a heckler named Rich following you from gig to gig screaming out "strings ringing!!!!….I can hear strings ringing!!!"
All those early bop guitar players using those string dampers would say it was because of feedback. Well maybe…... but I think they were also trying to stop the odd rogue string from ringing.
Anyway I think you can eradicate string ringing by looking at what your left hand is doing and adjusting that over time.
Try that method of touching the ringing string with a free finger if you come across a troubling phrase…..you'll be amazed what your body will start to learn and do naturally over time.
It takes time.
I mentioned in another post a long time ago that the BT is a 2 handed technique and I still think it is.Last edited by Philco; 08-30-2014 at 10:17 PM.
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Great stuff, Phil. Thanks. I think you're right about learning where you're apt to have trouble. I have a line where after a pause I start with a note and a hammer on frets 6 and 7 of the third (G) string. The fourth string (D) often rings out, and since nothing is fretted three and the line moves to the B and high E strings, that note would keep ringing for some time. I've learned to be careful about that. It's an eight-measure line and that one note is the only trouble spot. For awhile I thought my muting just stank but then I realized, "Hey, this is one note out of 60 or so and if you learn to deal with it here, you'll be ready for it in other lines when it happens. It's NOT that big a deal." Originally Posted by Philco
As you said in the OP vid, it takes time to get it all together. I've made enough progress to know I'm on the right track and keep telling myself, "In a year, this will be soooo good."
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Please pardon me for hoping not. I think Rich's argument is that one cannot mute effectively while Benson picking, period. Originally Posted by edh
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While we're talking about the left hand, I've heard no more from JC about the tutorial / webinar on fingering. He's going away for two weeks starting today, so we won't be seeing it anytime soon. I think he hoped to have it out / uploaded (whatever) in October.
Meanwhile, has anyone else made discoveries about fingerings?
As Philco was saying about, Benson picking is a two-handed technique. It seems there may be better and worse ways to finger passages / lines in order to keep unwanted string ringing to a minimum. Further, some fingerings may mininmize the number of pick strokes needed to sound a line. Any thoughts?
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Couple things. I think if you watch the vid I posted you'll hear that I don't really have string ring problems. I had a benson picker for a teacher for a couple of years, and I could never figure out why he didn't have problems with feedback or string ring.
1) benson has a very "acoustic" sound. My volume settings are just lower than they used to be, because I am playing with a more acoustic sound and harder touch. There's less channel open.
2) I practice everything with my left hand only fretting the note for half the duration of the note value. This has become my default jazz guitar sound now, and it's based on listening to Charlie Christian and Wes in addition to benson. For example, if I'm playing two quarter notes in a row, I'm really thinking two eighth notes with an eighth note rest in between. Seems weird, but practicing the release of the note is to me a big part of controlling ring. I also think that legato is less important in jazz than in classical.
3) I heard that benson had no callouses on his left hand. I think this is because he plays with the pads, and not the tips of the fingers. This helps him have a light touch, and it makes it easy to dampen the two strings surrounding the fretted string. If you're fretting in the g string you can easily mute the b and d strings.
4) his thumb hangs over for a reason. It's cake to mute the bass strings as needed with it.
5) put your volume knobs at about half.
Using all that stuff I've played some pretty high volume gigs without experiencing any feedback.
I think #1 is the most important. Turn it down.
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If the light touch of #3 refers to the left hand only, then the 'harder touch' of #1 should refer to the right hand only. How hard a touch are we talking about here? If the pick (face) is flat against the string, that makes for the hardest sound, right? A Benson angle with a relaxed wrists seems to me like a recipe for a softer touch, not a harder touch. Am I missing something? Originally Posted by ecj
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Yeah. My approach is light left hard right. I think there's a difference between playing without tension and being relaxed. I wouldn't describe my right hand as tense, but I definitely dig in and play hard. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Okay. I can see the difference too, but I don't play hard with my right hand. At all. I think that would be hard for me to learn. Originally Posted by ecj
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Originally Posted by ecj
Definitely!
The gypsy jazz guys are maybe the best example of this...no tension, but they're whacking those strings!
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Yeah, those guys play hard but without apparent tension. The great ones amaze me. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Yeah, that's a great illustration. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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To shift gears slightly. Back to the left hand. (But not muting.) I've been emailing with two guys who have a lot to say about this but for differing reasons aren't inclined to post on this thread right now. I'm not posting on their behalf, either. I'm trying to digest what I heard them say and want to know what you guys think.
One: slurs with the left hand. Both of these guys say that Benson and people he taught actually slur a lot more with their left hands than it sounds like. That is, they're not picking as many notes as we think. (Which is how George can play so fast with his thumb---things are set up so that the picking is, as Frank Vignola put it, "mostly down." This would require a change in fingering but just what it is, I don't yet know.
Two: economy picking. I know JC says that with Benson picking there's no real difference b/w the sound of a downstroke and an upstroke. Fine. But when we see George play really fast with his thumb----he may not be playing his fastest lines that way but his playing seems in no way inhibited or less natural---we realize he's not picking ALL the notes.
What are we to make of this?
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I think the guys you are talking to are right. I think benson's approach is very rooted in Wes.
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I've seen GB do slurs and it's pretty apparent when he does them (using a pick). I think it's just an extra colour that he occasionally uses to vary the sound. But he predominantly picks every note when playing fast eighth's IMO. It's not a situation like Metheny where he constantly mixes up slurs and picked notes as a major part of his technique. GB probably slurs more when using his thumb to compensate for the loss of facility he has with a pick - I get the vibe he's really adaptable and just does what's needed in the moment.
Economy picking: depends on your definition - that whole issue was debated on another thread a couple of months back - turned out to be a can of worms. Mark could you elaborate what you mean by economy in this context?
Didn't GB say somewhere that he first started out as a thumb player? The GB tech is in many ways using the pick as an extension of the thumb.
As an aside, I've been working on my swing feel with Benson picking and have started accenting the downstrokes a little bit more than the upstrokes to get something approximating a 50's swing feel instead of the even/more modern way of playing 8th's that most Benson pickers seem to prefer. I noticed when I switched to Benson picking my swing feel changed to sounding much straighter than when I used traditional grip and I think it's because the reverse angle of the pick naturally has a stronger attack on the upstrokes. Lots of ways to accent 8th's such as the difference between Tal, Herb & Wes - 3 different feels entirely - depends what sound you're going for. Anyway the accenting thing is just an observation I stumbled upon a couple of days ago. I'll work on it and see what happens.Last edited by 3625; 09-02-2014 at 03:16 AM.
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I think so too. Which brings up the whole 3-finger approach thing and diagonal playing, which may be something to talk about elsewhere. Originally Posted by ecj
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I don't have a strict definition of economy picking. In this context, I'm thinking of the thumb. Wes played with his thumb and even though some say he could play upstrokes with his thumb----which is something I won't argue about---I think we all can agree that he played mostly downstrokes (if not all downstrokes). To do that, he had to finger lines in a way that allowed for lots of downstrokes. (Gypsy picking does this too.) Originally Posted by 3625
I like the notion that what sets Benson picking apart is that it is a lot like playing with one's thumb. Which means it should favor downstrokes too. (Which should require a fingering / diagonal approach akin to Wes's.)
That's all I mean. So far. I'm still sussing this out. Practicing, thinking about it, practicing, thinking about it....
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OK, I've been lurking on this thread for about 4 weeks now (since I started trying to learn Benson picking) and I'm going to chime in. I saw Philco's video on YouTube and in the replies found the link to JT's video so I bought it before I knew about this thread or that coaching was available.
Anyway I've spent a lot of time working on this right hand technique and when I've got it going it's great but it's too elusive to gig with now, I drop the pick periodically, and I'm having a hard time playing rhythm, BUT I have a LOT more control when using the technique. I can play fast using a traditional technique but have never been able to play this fast and the momentum of moving the hand with a traditional technique is hard to stop ... no issue at all with the Benson technique.
I saw Stevie Ray Vaughn from a very good seat in the 80's and noticed he controlled string ring with his left hand. A lot of his sound came from hitting all the strings and only sounding one, IOW muting all the strings except the one he wanted to sound. I've been a predominantly rock player since I could never develop a good enough technique to play jazz and I could actually supplement my income by playing covers.
So, I'm not having any issues at all with ringing strings because of the SRV influence. I'm also really excited about what this Benson picking is doing for my Jazz chops, so much so that I bought a Chinese D'Angelico a couple of weeks ago.
Great thread guys. Many thanks for your video Philco. It's a life changer.
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