Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[Groyniad]

Okay, you guys are going off the deep end :-)

You still have to actually pick the strings and fret the notes.

dig the very down to earth examples i gave of letting things happen

and the stuff about initiating the wrist movement but not executing it - initiating a free swing in the wrist

bs?

nope

but if you want to stay in the shallow end that's fine too

[Groyniad]

Okay, you guys are going off the deep end :-)

You still have to actually pick the strings and fret the notes.

but more seriously - you don't pick the strings - you push the pick against a string its resting on (typically) and it picks the string by sapping back to straight through it

this is most evident on say the first note of a line played on a low string - but its happening all the time - even (at a push) with the strumming 'action'

[Groyniad]

[QUOTE=ecj;449672]Okay, you guys are going off the deep end :-)


but that bit is right

[MarkRhodes]

+1
More grist to the mill...
screenshots of GB's right hand:

Great shots. Thanks. In that second shot, George is riding high on that pick!

Another thing is very clear here: his palm is NOT upturned!

[destinytot]

Sorry about going off the deep end ...

Wu wei or non-doing relates to the Alexander Technique, which is about the removal of excessive muscular tension through 'constructive conscious control'.
The technique involves (following recognition and awareness of habit):
(i) inhibition and non-doing,
(ii) 'sending' carefully-worded directions, and
(iii) 'Primary Control' (to do with keeping the head and neck in alignment)

I emphasise that steps (ii) and (iii) involve 'doing'.

But the Alexander Technique also involves 'undoing'; you set aside end-gaining, and retrain yourself to focus on the means by which you make each movement while you play.

[Groyniad]

its meant to help people who are used to traditional picking to make the transition

the notes come from very small movements in a freely 'hanging' wrist - the pick flexes 'by itself' - you push it against a string it is already touching (so you don't bring it into contact with the string deliberately) and the flexing 'happens' in the pick.

these features of the technique are crucial to the result - an even strong tone (etc. etc.) and excellent articulation - not just to how it feels to use the two techniques

i deleted a bit about ancient greek grammar (the 'middle voice' verbs) - so there was a certain amount of restraint going on

[edh]

@Mark...what mark stated about the palm not facing upwards is interesting. It looks to me that ascending from high strings to low, the tends to straighten out(face the top of the guitar). Picking the high strings the palm faces upwards slightly. This is what happens to me when going from high to low strings. Going low to high the palm naturally tends to face slightly upwards. The reason for this, that I have become aware of in my attempting to Benson pick, is the anchoring of the little finger on the pickguard.

edh

[fm42]

I had a go last night trying to implement the "clamp" between my straight thimp and 1st finger keeping the top joint of the finger straight. I could only straighten this joint by applying a fair amount of pressure. This of course produced some tension in my other fingers but I presume this will dissapear once I'm more familiar with the grip and can loosen the pressure a bit. Still trying to figure out which way to let the movement happen. With these sort of things any slight alteration of any of the components seem to have quite a big impact.
Hope to get an actual sound out of the guitar any day now...

[MarkRhodes]

i deleted a bit about ancient greek grammar (the 'middle voice' verbs) - so there was a certain amount of restraint going on

That would have been my favorite part! I studied Latin and some Greek in seminary. Actually, when I was in my early 20s I took correspondence lessons in ancient Greek from a woman in Grand Forks, North Dakota. Ah, those were the days.... Aristotle is among my favorite philosophers.

I was interested in the Alexander Technique many years ago and spent a year going to a teacher. She was credentialed and kind, very generous with her time and spirit, but I didn't find the descriptions useful the way some people do. (The lasting legacy of that time is my habit of lying on a hard floor on my back with my head atop a closed book for fifteen-twenty minutes at a time. I find that relaxing.)

[jckoto3]

[snip]

(The lasting legacy of that time is my habit of lying on a hard floor on my back with my head atop a closed book for fifteen-twenty minutes at a time. I find that relaxing.)

I have a whole library full of books and was always wondering what to do with them. Also have a hard floor.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[MarkRhodes]

@Mark...what mark stated about the palm not facing upwards is interesting. It looks to me that ascending from high strings to low, the tends to straighten out(face the top of the guitar). Picking the high strings the palm faces upwards slightly. This is what happens to me when going from high to low strings. Going low to high the palm naturally tends to face slightly upwards. The reason for this, that I have become aware of in my attempting to Benson pick, is the anchoring of the little finger on the pickguard.

edh

I wonder about this every day. Slight adjustments in how I position the pick between the thumb and index result in differences in hand position.

Here is JC on the upturned palm:

[setemupjoe]

I wonder about this every day. Slight adjustments in how I position the pick between the thumb and index result in differences in hand position.

Here is JC on the upturned palm:

Lol. I think JC is having a dig at me in that video. We're headed for the Aussie smackdown. From memory I think he's from Brisbane and I'm originally from Melbourne.

The upturned palm thing is how I learned it from Rodney Jones. That was the first thing he showed me. I do think however that as you master the technique the hand position becomes more flexible and fluid. My right hand is still turned up more than JC's but then he has honed it more after Benson's technique than I have.

[MarkRhodes]

The upturned palm thing is how I learned it from Rodney Jones. That was the first thing he showed me. I do think however that as you master the technique the hand position becomes more flexible and fluid. My right hand is still turned up more than JC's but then he has honed it more after Benson's technique than I have.

I think it's good that both ways can work!

[AlainJazz]

My fender medium pick was getting pretty worn out. At the same time, I noticed it was getting easier to play. I switched to a brand new pick and lo and behold, I'm finding it much more difficult to play. Mind you I've only noticed this on my strat with rounds. Anyone else notice this?

[3625]

My fender medium pick was getting pretty worn out. At the same time, I noticed it was getting easier to play. I switched to a brand new pick and lo and behold, I'm finding it much more difficult to play. Mind you I've only noticed this on my strat with rounds. Anyone else notice this?

Sounds like you wore a 'speed bevel' into your old pick. I've been experimenting today with putting one on my fender medium by filing the tip on both sides to imitate pick wear. Yeah, it's easier to play - feels less 'sluggish' and heavy when trying to pop each note because it has less friction against the string.

Downside for me is that it makes the tone thinner and brighter than what I'm going for. I'm going to try putting bevels on some other picks and see what happens.

The other approach is to get a pick with a sharper point. Benson's signature ibanez picks have sharper tips than the fenders.

[MarkRhodes]

I have four Fender Medium picks. I never use the 'new' one (-the one with the Fender logo still visible) because I'm saving it. I use the others. One has wound up on the bottom of the swimming pool twice. (I don't know how it gets there.) I keep telling myself to order more but I haven't. I'm used to the worn ones.

[AlainJazz]

Interesting! So I guess it's not my imagination.

[edh]

Try putting a speed bevel on a thicker pick and see what happens.

edh

[Groyniad]

I had a go last night trying to implement the "clamp" between my straight thimp and 1st finger keeping the top joint of the finger straight. I could only straighten this joint by applying a fair amount of pressure. This of course produced some tension in my other fingers but I presume this will dissapear once I'm more familiar with the grip and can loosen the pressure a bit. Still trying to figure out which way to let the movement happen. With these sort of things any slight alteration of any of the components seem to have quite a big impact.
Hope to get an actual sound out of the guitar any day now...

straightening - or locking (because it can go past straight - as when writing) - the index finger is the thing that feels most odd (after locking the thumb)

i found that the oddness wore off very quickly

the first aspect of the technique that should impress itself on you is the way it produces a more forceful or assertive (and 'tighter') sound. to get that, just try repeated simple downstrokes on one string. rest the pick on the string at the 45 ish degree angle we've discussed, press pick against string and let it flex through the string. if this doesn't produce a very very good sound you must not be clamping the pick effectively. if you don't clamp the pick then it will move around in your hand and you will not generate 'flex power'.

i love flex power.

as the man with the crazy name - tuck andress - says so insightfully: its amazing how even with a lot of clamping power going on between thumb and index the rest of the hand can relax very well indeed. you need to let your hand 'rest' into the broken wrist that is so crucial to the technique. it is the same broken wrist that characterizes classical hand position - it should feel like you let the wrist break away from a straight line with the forearm - not that you push it into anything against its will (so to speak)

best of luck to you

[Groyniad]

Interesting! So I guess it's not my imagination.

the picks warm up - if you swap to a fresh one half way through a session the feel changes noticeably

i just ordered the sharper pointed ibanez benson picks - i'll report back when i've tried them

i find its good to use the fender fine picks to get a better sense of using the flex to make the sound

[MarkRhodes]

You know, guys, I played some old swing tunes over the weekend, which called for a lot of comping. I found myself holding the pick in a somewhat different way.

Imagine the pick as an inverted pyramid. The base---the picking tip---we shall call point C.
Point A will be the 'shoulder' of the pick closest to the tip of the index finger, while Point B will be the 'shoulder' furthest back from the tip of the index.

I found myself clamping Point A very near the tip of my index. (I normally grip it closer to Point B) The tip of the pick pointed toward my palm.

Thinking about it, that shouldn't work so well, but it worked fine while playing.

I experimented with it more deliberately today. Not just comping, but playing single lines. It seems to me that the pick strokes are smaller this way than any other way I have held the pick.

Whatever will I think of next??? ;o)

[AlainJazz]

You mean when he's using his thumb? I don't get it.

[MarkRhodes]

You mean when he's using his thumb? I don't get it.

Me neither.

Though I think there is a relation between the way George plays with his thumb and the way he plays with a pick----I think he gets the same kind of motion when picking that he was when 'thumbing.'

[MarkRhodes]

did you notice the way he does upstrokes with his thumb?

No, I didn't notice that.I know Wes could do that. But why would George doing an upstroke with his thumb reveal the secret of Benson picking? Is that the secret, upstrokes with the thumb????

[MarkRhodes]

Fewer posts than usual (for this thread) the past few days. I hope this means you've all been practicing like good boys and girls. I know I have been.