Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[Patrick2]

So that's considered standard, holding the pick between the pad of the thumb and the side of the index finger?

very interesting. I know a lot of beginner books show that, but I didn't think anybody actually did it

I think my saving grace was that no one ever taught me how to hold a pick. No one ever scrutinized my method and told me that is was wrong, or confirmed that it was correct. I just grabbed a pick and started plucking on the strings. Then I just continued to refine what I was doing from day one until I got to something that worked for me and I stuck with it. I think GB probably did the same thing.?.?

In another post you made, you correctly observed abd stated; "I think we're getting pretty broad in the definition". I believe that's more of a good thing than it is a bad one. Look at your own situation, for example. You found out by posting a video of your playing that your picking technique is pretty much what defined as the GB method. The difference being the backwards arch in your wrist. But, that difference doesn't seem to restrict your speed, tone or comfort. It's apparently something that you either developed or refined on your own. That's as it should be.

What I believe would be objectionable would be if some of those who are torturing themselves to do it EXACTLY as GB does, were to tell you that you're doing something wrong that you must correct if you ever intend to play faster and sound better tonally. That's also what I'm hearing you say as well.

[Groyniad]

There's a prety good view of each guitarist's right hand in these two live clips.

From Spain, Telmo Fernández (who's studied with JC Stylles):

And from France, Amaury Filliard:

wow man i love that first clip! goodness gracious me - they both play great

and what a fantastic angle to view the technique from - amongst many things it illustrates the role of pick flex and the importance of a great clamp!

thanks!

[Groyniad]

Sure. Here's Herb Ellis, a big fave o' mine.

great example of traditional approach

great fave of mine too - i used this vid a lot when i first got into the whole thing

(best gig i ever went to was a herb, oscar, ray brown gig)

[Groyniad]

I tried to do it the 'right' way, as I understood it, which wound up being with the pick along the top edge of the index. That's how I held a Jazz III. Sometimes the pick would wind up back between the index pad and my thumb, and sometimes it would wind up being angled backwards. If I knew then what I know now.....[/QUOTE]


the amount of trouble its caused me - oh my

i put so much time and energy and thought and sensitivity into everything else - and perhaps the most significant thing of all was something i never thought about for a moment

i wish i knew the name of the group and the player - but it was a bar gig in New Orleans just over a year ago that convinced me i had to change. a young guy - all over the guitar with ease. fabulous clarity control and flow - hair raising version of Minority i remember.

it helps to be there - then you really can't miss it.

what amazed me when i talked to him afterwards - and what confirmed me in my quest - was that the only thing he went on about was how much it improved his tone - and he showed in a few seconds what he meant.

[larry graves]

That last cat isnt using the GB position. And they are all the same. Just about all of them are the same: Benson/Wes clones or Benson/Wes wannabe's.

In verbatim we create-um!....L..

[mr. beaumont]

I think my saving grace was that no one ever taught me how to hold a pick. No one ever scrutinized my method and told me that is was wrong, or confirmed that it was correct. I just grabbed a pick and started plucking on the strings. Then I just continued to refine what I was doing from day one until I got to something that worked for me and I stuck with it. I think GB probably did the same thing.?.?

In another post you made, you correctly observed abd stated; "I think we're getting pretty broad in the definition". I believe that's more of a good thing than it is a bad one. Look at your own situation, for example. You found out by posting a video of your playing that your picking technique is pretty much what defined as the GB method. The difference being the backwards arch in your wrist. But, that difference doesn't seem to restrict your speed, tone or comfort. It's apparently something that you either developed or refined on your own. That's as it should be.

What I believe would be objectionable would be if some of those who are torturing themselves to do it EXACTLY as GB does, were to tell you that you're doing something wrong that you must correct if you ever intend to play faster and sound better tonally. That's also what I'm hearing you say as well.

Absolutely.

Ill admit (not that I need to anymore, I think its pretty obvious) that I have a hard time accepting that practice isn't enough.

[MarkRhodes]

What I believe would be objectionable would be if some of those who are torturing themselves to do it EXACTLY as GB does, were to tell you that you're doing something wrong that you must correct if you ever intend to play faster and sound better tonally. That's also what I'm hearing you say as well.

I agree with that too. I think Philco said it best when he said there are a few deal breakers (-the pick is angled and the pinky is on the pickguard) but much else varies hand to hand. A great example has to do with the thumb: some players have a more "bendy" thumb than others. My thumb bends back in a way that would be painful for some; it's normal for me.

It's important to keep in mind that what we call the 'standard grip' is not exactly the same from player to player (-or even great jazz player to great jazz player). We're not robots and our hands vary in size, dexterity, and habits.

But what we call the Benson grip is a real thing and there are real differences between it and the standard grip.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=MarkRhodes;448662]I agree with that too. I think Philco said it best when he said there are a few deal breakers (-the pick is angled and the pinky is on the pickguard) but much else varies hand to hand. A great example has to do with the thumb: some players have a more "bendy" thumb than others. My thumb bends back in a way that would be painful for some; it's normal for me.

It's important to keep in mind that what we call the 'standard grip' is not exactly the same from player to player (-or even great jazz player to great jazz player). We're not robots and our hands vary in size, dexterity, and habits.

But what we call the Benson grip is a real thing and there are real differences between it and the standard grip.

Well then, to your point . . . which Benson grip differs from which standard grip?? ;-) (just messin' with ya)

[MarkRhodes]

Well then, to your point . . . which Benson grip differs from which standard grip?? ;-) (just messin' with ya)

Patrick, do you want to get a "does not play well with others" on your report card? You know that would become part of your permanent record....

[Patrick2]

Patrick, do you want to get a "does not play well with others" on your report card? You know that would become part of your permanent record....

lolol At this point in my life, I'd really hate to see what my report card might look like.

[Groyniad]

Absolutely.

Ill admit (not that I need to anymore, I think its pretty obvious) that I have a hard time accepting that practice isn't enough.

its just a question of how much and how far it takes you man

[Groyniad]

I much prefer closer to 45 degrees, both from a physical feel and sound perspective. As far as I can tell, GB plays way closer to 45 than 90. As far as choking up on the pick, I get a better rhythmic feel with more pick exposed. I can get a good sound when my L.H. is healthy enough to raise the action to an acceptable height. Just not my sound.

its really interesting that such an advanced player can have this sort of problem with the technique. i totally get it - it is a distinctive sound. from my much less advanced perspective it seems to be pulling so much more out of the guitar - together with the amazing definition it brings (low notes are both very strong and very very clearly defined) that i couldn't imagine having a problem with the sound. its so 'convincing' - i.e. even if it is different from anything i've got from the guitar before the increase in definition and dynamic range and nuance is so obvious that its persuasive.

all this is on an acoustic archtop however in drumerless trios.

[fep]

I gotta admit, I thought what I did was standard...I was told from my first lesson at age 12 to angle the pick back!

can you guys post some videos of jazz players using what you'd call "quintessential standard grip?"

I think Lee Ritenour is a good example and he can fly. At the beginning of this clip:

[ecj]

Ill admit (not that I need to anymore, I think its pretty obvious) that I have a hard time accepting that practice isn't enough.

I'm not sure I understand why it's so controversial to suggest that body positioning might have benefits for performance on an instrument. If someone posted a vid of themselves playing with the guitar neck tilted down towards the floor, everyone would be all over them to move the neck up to a more traditional angle.

It seems entirely possible to me, and perhaps likely given my own experience, that Benson picking is way easier than the standard model. It's obvious you can get to a very high level with either, but at least for me the barrier to entry was tougher with the standard grip. I can play close to as fast with either, but the difference in relaxation and ease with Benson picking is huge for me.

The gypsy guys have their own very unique approach to the instrument, and it obviously creates a pretty significant impact on their performances. I think Benson picking, similarly, a different way to address the instrument that has notable benefits and drawbacks, as myles noted. Why everyone insists that there cannot possibly be anything special about it is beyond me.

[Groyniad]

I don't know, maybe I'll eventually find a way to feel like I can create music with it. Every time I pull the technique out I impress myself with how fast I can twiddle my fingers, then realize that I sound like shit playing simple melodies or non-doubletime ideas on medium swing tempos. Even during a period when I switched to it full time for about 4 months while studying with Rodney, I always felt the technique *dictating* how I played music rather than the technique *allowing* me to play music. That was several years ago and I still feel the same way. Maybe I'll eventually figure it out, but ever since I started trying to use the technique, I felt like I was wearing somebody else's shoes and not enjoying the results.

very interesting - i hope i don't come to feel that way. can you play bright and feel relaxed with the traditional method?

one of the things strikes me about benson is that he could play any style and nail it: rhythm and blues, swing, bebop (which you don't hear often - the masterclass vid. has quite a bit) etc. and it seems like a lot of the freedom 'comes' from his right hand technique (via his ear of course).

he sounds at least as much like charlie christian as charlie christian in the youtube clips with benny goodman - for example

[Philco]

There's no one right way to hold the pick.
The guitar is a DIY instrument.

You find what works for you. Great.

Could there be physics involved or on the other hand is it magic? Hard work perhaps?

Is it what you got comfy with back in the day? And that makes it automagically the best path for you?

So you're happy with that?

All good then.

Yet here we are. Not quite in, not quite out.

[cosmic gumbo]

If it was undisputedly a much superior method, more of the great guitarists would have adopted it just because of the logic of it producing superior chops...the greats are not afraid to put in the time to advance their playing. I see it as one of many good picking methods, but am unconvinced it is the supreme method for everyone. Very few will say it's a bad method, so is there really any argument about it's value for some?

[Nabil B]

About rest strokes : are you supposed to use them on every single down stroke ? Or just when going to a higher string ?

[destinytot]

am unconvinced it is the supreme method for everyone

So am I. (And I wouldn't even dream of suggesting that it is either 'the supreme method' or, indeed, 'for everyone".)

What I would say is that this technique has allowed me to break unconscious fossilised habits, which - unbeknown to me - were preventing me from the playing the guitar in a way that feels natural to me.

And I can say from experience that my first hint of the value of this technique actually came from playing rhythm on (unamplified) acoustic rhythm guitar. What's more, its value to me becomes abundantly clear in playing chord melody on (amplified archtop) with a pick.

This is no longer surprising to me; the players I most admire have a connection to banjo.

I'm almost ashamed to say that, until a few years ago, had anyone suggested exploring that connection, I would have scoffed.

For me, guitar playing has finally become all about strumming - including 'strumming on one string' - in language that ranges from swing to bop, and in ways that feel natural and relaxed.

[destinytot]

on every single down stroke ? Or just when going to a higher string ?

For me, it's the latter (for reasons of economy of movement).

[setemupjoe]

About rest strokes : are you supposed to use them on every single down stroke ? Or just when going to a higher string ?

For me I tend to use rest stroke all the time. The faster the line is the less I notice if I'm actually making contact with the next string but definitely on slower lines I push through the string and make contact with the string below.
By allowing the string below to stop my movement I don't have to waste energy or tighten a muscle to make the pick stop. The string below does it for me. It's one of the reasons I like this method. It feels more relaxed.

[MarkRhodes]

If it was undisputed a much superior method, more of the great guitarists would have adopted it just because of the logic of it producing superior chops...the greats are not afraid to put in the time to advance their playing. I see it as one of many good picking methods, but am unconvinced it is the supreme method for everyone. Very few will say it's a bad method, so is there really any argument about it's value for some?

Interesting take. Although I agree that the greats don't shy away from work, they tend to NOT 'start over'. That is, they may augment their basic approach---that which got 'em on the bandstand in the first place--rather than overhaul it.

A good example of this from another style of guitar is 'two-hand tapping.' A lot of players who were pros when that style developed did not go back and add it to their arsenals. They COULD have but many thought it wouldn't be worth the time it took them to master it. The same goes for sweep picking. Actually sweeping is a better example because it is used more often in a jazz context, and not just by Frank Gambale. Some people know a few sweeping licks but never seriously woodshedded the technique because they knew it would take a lot of time for a long time and they thought it would be better to spend that time getting better at what they already knew how to do.

Jimmy Bruno is a good example of going from (traditional) alternate picking to economy picking. He said it was a drastic change to make and it took a lot of time to get it right. Few working pros can take six months off to get a new picking technique 'ready for prime time.' As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Most of the people I know who are enthralled with Benson picking struggled mightily with the standard grip. It didn't work for them as well as they would like. (And this is a widespread problem: right hand "drag" is a much more prevalent among guitarists than left hand "drag." I don't think I've ever met a guitarist who thought his right hand was fine but his left hand was really letting him down....) But everyone who switches to Benson picking has baggage, history, habits of hand and mind. I don't know what it would be like to start out that way..

[Groyniad]

Traditional grip, but still using rest strokes and anchoring lightly on the guard, I can get maybe 90% of what I can get get with the GB grip, but it's easier to get tangled up since the pick is dragging rather than slicing. I like the tone slightly better that way though as I prefer the fuzziness that comes from not slicing. I think that may be what Joe Cohn does, though I may be totally wrong.


My normal way of playing is more like what you see from Peter Bernstein or Anthony Wilson's right hands. Tempos are a bitch for me with that grip, but I am much happier with my sound, dynamic range, and basic swing 8th feel. I feel more relaxed and certain about rhythms I am playing with that grip....until I want to double time at 180 or somebody calls a tune at 300 and I want to play 8ths.

Jesse Van Ruler probably comes closest I've heard to getting the type of sound I like along with a Bensonesque attack. He anchors with the pinky but looks to me like he is using the normal side of the pick.

But, especially because my hand problems are forcing me into low action, I'm becoming more interested in a lighter and more legato approach than I have been in the past.

In other words, I don't know wtf I want anymore.

This detail is just great - i was just watching mark whitfield and i think he does a hybrid - anchoring but with dragging not slicing. As i said i used to play with nothing but the top of my forearm resting on the guitar and i'd never used a rest stroke until i got in the benson thing - and i never learned to relax into double time or bright tempos.

so part of my excitement about the gb method is probably a reflection of just how difficult i was making the traditional method for myself (playing with a great bebop alt. player for fifteen years and sounding like a f'in nervous typewriter)

benson is famous for attack and definition - even a 'staccato' style - but i find his double time passages are so well phrased they have a legato effect that's fantastic - really flowing/horn-like

i'm really sorry you're having to deal with hand problems - i had bad shoulder trouble for about three years - horrid nasty bstrd. if you don't stop you don't stand much of a chance of getting better (at least very often) - but stopping doesn't feel like an option.

the lighter more legato approach you're adopting out of necessity (at least partially) may come to have all sorts of musical benefits for you (i think it often works that way)

great stuff

[nunocpinto]

Hello, guys, still trying to clarify two points after seeing that invariably things always come back in circle after points have been discussed: rest strokes & left hand muting: check the video below:

https://mega.co.nz/#!JhEx3LSQ!dJGVEZ...jo2bTG396MFnKo

Best

[MarkRhodes]

For me I tend to use rest stroke all the time. The faster the line is the less I notice if I'm actually making contact with the next string but definitely on slower lines I push through the string and make contact with the string below.
By allowing the string below to stop my movement I don't have to waste energy or tighten a muscle to make the pick stop. The string below does it for me. It's one of the reasons I like this method. It feels more relaxed.

I find this all interesting. I never worked hard on rest strokes. But when you say "by allowing the string below to stop my movement I don't have to waste energy or tighten a muscle to make the pick stop" I think, gee, I never thought about making the pick stop....

Take tremolo picking. It would be really weird---for me, at least---to drive the pick all the way to the next string. When I tremolo pick, my thought is 'never make the pick leave the string!' My visual image for this is logrolling. I imagine the pick 'rolling' from the top of the string to the bottom without ever breaking contact with it. (I'm not saying I achieve this but it is how I approach it.)

And my sense is that tremolo picking is the starting point. That's the refinement of the pick stroke. You get that down well and go to two strings...

My sense was that you wan to keep the pick stroke as small as possible.

I certainly get not going PAST the next string, but if you don't push hard, the pick will stop without before it moves that far....