Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[mr. beaumont]

Lol...I mean if the amp was any closer to the iPad, it would have sounded distorted

Now, get out of the stone age and get some recordings of those beautiful guitars up here. You can pick em any way you want.

[MarkRhodes]

Sorry for being so blunt and harsh, but I'm a teacher. I can't deal with magic.

This is uncalled for. No one here is talking about magic. And for the record, a week or so back you were commenting on our obsession with minutiae such as wrist position. This is all practical stuff: how you hold the pick, how you strike the strings, the kind of pick you use. No mumbo jumbo, no mysticism, no incantations, none of that.

This is basic stuff, lots or practice, real improvement. Not magic.

Going back to the OP by Philco, or the vid by setemupjoe (aka Mark Cally) the material from JC Stylles or the posts from people like me trying to get a handle on this,this is all very hands-on, what-works-for-me (or what-I-can't-get-to-work-for-me) stuff.

Some people think George Benson is one of the greatest jazz guitarists of all time. You don't. That's fine. But none of us dismiss as "fanboyism" your praises of Jim Hall, Ed Bickert, or Bill Evans. We live and let live; you seem to find that difficult and suggest it is somehow our fault. It isn't.

[mr. beaumont]

I think I've been pretty upfront about what I think about Benson (that he's great and has great time and feel when playing fast)and why I'm still interested in this thread. Where do I say GB isn't one of the greats?

im trying to separate the real from the "I like Benson, so his way must be better." For example, Fep's, yours, an de j's posts are very practical. Yeah, I called Gronyiad out on some stuff that was completely based in opinion. That's what I'm calling magic--the unquantifiable.

that's uncalled for? If it is hen I'll take a hike. But that's really insulting to me. I'm trying to cut through the crap and get to the bottom of some very real things about my technique.

[destinytot]

Well, thats cute and zen and all, but sometimes its time to play fast.

I've been around the block. I know the excitement of playing fast, and i occasionally do play fast. But never as an end in itself. (Being cute, zen and all, on the other hand, is very much an end in itself.) I hope you take the time to listen to Sean on the first two tunes of that recording, mr beaumont. I'm confident that you'll find it rewarding.

[mr. beaumont]

No, no...thats a logical post man. Your own words, and very true ones.

And I have checked out those posts, and they're outstanding.

I'm certainly not talking about speed for speed's sake. I'm (and I assume everyone else) is talking about speed when you need it.

[destinytot]

the unquantifiable.

At the risk of talking out of turn, I can sympathise mr beaumont's point of view. Even with JC's tutorial and the kind efforts of people on this thread, I had considered the technique to be essentially incommunicable.

But when I read these words from groyniad, the penny dropped:

happened about half an hour after i got myself a bendy pick - never used one before - never ever ever

the secret is this:

you play with the flex in the pick - pushing and pulling it through the strings - you do not hit the strings at all - you don't strike them or even 'pluck' them

[Groyniad]

At the risk of talking out of turn, I can sympathise mr beaumont's point of view. Even with JC's tutorial and the kind efforts of people on this thread, I had considered the technique to be essentially incommunicable.

But when I read these words from groyniad, the penny dropped:

i'm a teacher too - lots and lots of teaching - not jazz other things. your strap line is about what can't be explained isn't it?

if you look over the posts you should get it

its worth the effort - you'll recognize it as soon as you do get it

in the sense that it suddenly introduces you to a voice that your guitar has always had - a stronger clearer more nuanced voice - it feels a bit 'magical'. it certainly takes you back when it first starts happening properly.

and it has nothing directly to do with speed. you can get it with simple slowly repeated downstrokes if you like - that will show you the effect of locking down the pick (and you can do this more or less effectively - to start with you should aim to stop it moving around completely) it will also show you the effect of holding the pick in different places so there's more or less flexing going on. more flex more punch and projection and brightness...

the only thing about very fast passages is that you can suddenly come close to doing them with real style and panache and that forces you to see that something very different must be happening. so in that sense it is a way in to the technique. but its probably better to get the feel of playing with the flex in the pick rather than plucking the strings by playing very simple things at very friendly tempos.

in a sense the key is to see that the upstroke can function as a mirror image of the downstroke - pulling the pick back through the string (at some sort of 'diagonal' angle) produces almost exactly the same sound as pushing it away (at the equal and opposite 'diagonal' angle)

[mr. beaumont]

Right. And now, if someone I trust (ecj) says Rogers is "Benson Picking" then again I ask how important the minutiae are...because his hand position doesn't look like Benson's to me, at all. And I think we'd all agree his picking is about as clean as it gets.

[mr. beaumont]

i'm a teacher too - lots and lots of teaching - not jazz other things. your strap line is about what can't be explained isn't it?

if you look over the posts you should get it

its worth the effort - you'll recognize it as soon as you do get it

in the sense that it suddenly introduces you to a voice that your guitar has always had - a stronger clearer more nuanced voice - it feels a bit 'magical'. it certainly takes you back when it first starts happening properly.

and it has nothing directly to do with speed. you can get it with simple slowly repeated downstrokes if you like - that will show you the effect of locking down the pick (and you can do this more or less effectively - to start with you should aim to stop it moving around completely) it will also show you the effect of holding the pick in different places so there's more or less flexing going on. more flex more punch and projection and brightness...

the only thing about very fast passages is that you can suddenly come close to doing them with real style and panache and that forces you to see that something very different must be happening. so in that sense it is a way in to the technique. but its probably better to get the feel of playing with the flex in the pick rather than plucking the strings by playing very simple things at very friendly tempos.

in a sense the key is to see that the upstroke can function as a mirror image of the downstroke - pulling the pick back through the string (at some sort of 'diagonal' angle) produces almost exactly the same sound as pushing it away (at the equal and opposite 'diagonal' angle)

Now THAT'S a to the point post. Thanks, sincerely.

[destinytot]

I'm (and I assume everyone else) is talking about speed when you need it.

My concerns about speed are two-fold. Firstly, it's tempting to use it as a crutch. Secondly, it can become a gimmick, ultimately corrupting and undermining musical culture. I live in an elegant Mediterranean city among pretty stoical people, as savvy as they come. No one here is easily fooled, especially not jazz audiences. But they are easily bored, and they're my touchstone.

[destinytot]

i'm a teacher too - lots and lots of teaching - not jazz other things. your strap line is about what can't be explained isn't it?

if you look over the posts you should get it

its worth the effort - you'll recognize it as soon as you do get it

in the sense that it suddenly introduces you to a voice that your guitar has always had - a stronger clearer more nuanced voice - it feels a bit 'magical'. it certainly takes you back when it first starts happening properly.

and it has nothing directly to do with speed. you can get it with simple slowly repeated downstrokes if you like - that will show you the effect of locking down the pick (and you can do this more or less effectively - to start with you should aim to stop it moving around completely) it will also show you the effect of holding the pick in different places so there's more or less flexing going on. more flex more punch and projection and brightness...

the only thing about very fast passages is that you can suddenly come close to doing them with real style and panache and that forces you to see that something very different must be happening. so in that sense it is a way in to the technique. but its probably better to get the feel of playing with the flex in the pick rather than plucking the strings by playing very simple things at very friendly tempos.

in a sense the key is to see that the upstroke can function as a mirror image of the downstroke - pulling the pick back through the string (at some sort of 'diagonal' angle) produces almost exactly the same sound as pushing it away (at the equal and opposite 'diagonal' angle)

I bet you're a bloody good teacher, too.

[Groyniad]

thanks man

[destinytot]

thanks man

"Yeah, but can you tell a story?"

(I can tell that you can.) Maybe I'll record and post something too.

Goodnight and thanks to everyone

[fep]

Anyone who has heard me play knows I'm not about speed, partially because I just don't have the chops to play fast.

Let's despense with this speed thing. The questions:

1) Isn't being able to swing a huge part of playing jazz?

2) Do you need to play eighth notes?

3) If the band calls a tune at 300 bpm, don't you need to be able to play eighth notes at that tempo?

4) Isn't speed necessary in jazz?

If the answer to 1 through 3 is yes, then the answer to 4 has to be yes.

[Patrick2]

Anyone who has heard me play knows I'm not about speed, partially because I just don't have the chops to play fast.

Let's despense with this speed thing. The questions:

1) Isn't being able to swing a huge part of playing jazz?

2) Do you need to play eighth notes?

3) If the band calls a tune at 300 bpm, don't you need to be able to play eighth notes at that tempo?

4) Isn't speed necessary in jazz?

If the answer to 1 through 3 is yes, then the answer to 4 has to be yes.

Really not sure I know what you're implying here . . or what you're trying to say. Here are my answers to your questions . . . stated in my own opinion as a jazz guitar fan, enthusiast, somewhat of a historian and a guitar player struggling to be better at playing jazz;

question 1. Yes!
question 2. Yes!
question 3. Yes . . but, with a qualifier. You don't need to be able to play 8th notes at 300 bpm for 24 for bars straight in order to lay down a good improv over a rhythm section that's moving along at 300 bpm. Yeah, you need to be able to play 8th notes in the groove at that tempo. But, they can be in shorter more doable and manageable spurts. Harken back to that video of Joe Pass, Oscar Peterson, Clark Terry, Neils Pederson . . and other friends. Pass had to breath between spurts quite often.

Yeah . . a jazz guitar player needs speed to hang with a challenging tempo. But, how do you think Jim Hall would have faired at that tempo? I think it would have been a real challenge to him . . to say the least. But, I'd not ever be the one to say the Jim Hall isn't a great jazz guitarist. He is. He just doesn't (didn't) have or see the need for hyper speed 8th notes for measure after measure. Neither do I. Just my opinion on the matter.

So then, my answer to number 4, would also be yes. Speed is indeed necessary in jazz. But, many greats have gotten along just fine while not being able to shred at 300 bpm.

[fep]

Good point about Jim Hall who is one of my favorite guitarists. Speed was not his forte. I remember a take of Scrapple from the Apple at an up tempo, and it seemed to me he struggled with the head at tempo. His solo sounded good though. It was at about 240 bpm.

So, I'd agree that one doesn't have to be able to pull off the 300 bpm tempos to be a jazz guitarist. It's just those dang drummers and horn players like to count off tunes at those kind of tempos.

[ecj]

Right. And now, if someone I trust (ecj) says Rogers is "Benson Picking" then again I ask how important the minutiae are...because his hand position doesn't look like Benson's to me, at all. And I think we'd all agree his picking is about as clean as it gets.

Rogers is one of the guys whose name comes up from time to time when folks are discussing Benson picking.

Check out this vid with a good view of the right hand:

Rogers appears to have a much harder anchor than someone like Benson or Stylles, and he definitely plays with a totally different patterning. It looks to me more like economy picking to me.

I think the big thing is that he's got the pick angled the "Benson way". This stuff is so hard to do verbally, but if you look at it like this:

bridge <--------> neck

The pick is more "/" than "\".

That, to me, is the big defining characteristic. A lot of the other stuff is different between players, but Rogers definitely has this reverse angle going on. Mel Bay wants you to hold it the "\" way, the whole Benson thing is about "/".

It looked to me from your vid that you were doing the "/" reverse angle, but hard to see in the shot.

Again, plenty of monster players use the traditional angle. Russell Malone even goes back and forth between them at different times when he plays. This is probably something I'd only advise someone to try if they struggle. I've known plenty of guys who seemed to have no limitation in terms of what they could play with the standard grip, and I'd never tell them they needed to change the way they hold their pick.

Helped me, though, and might be worth investigating for anyone who struggles.

Henry Johnson is a great example, too, because if you look online there are some message board exchanges where he explains that Benson taught him his technique as a solution to uptempo situations. Apparently, Johnson was struggling to keep up with the McDuff group until Benson starting giving him lessons. He credits Benson's system with helping him break through barriers.

Again, works for me. Might be worth checking out if you're refining technique.

[AlainJazz]

The problem with going back and forth between traditional grip and the benson grip is the pick itself. When I try and switch back to traditional grip during a tune, that medium pick feels like someone just tied my hands up. It doesn't work (at least for me it doesn't). That's why I've been putting a lot if work in making the benson grip work for all of the music and all of the guitars I play. That has been a bit of a challenge so far.

Mr. B, you mentioned in a post above that you'd rather spend more time on harmonic stuff than technique. It is the opposite for me. I have a pretty good grasp of a lot harmonic concepts which have been very difficult for me to implement in my playing outside of the practice room due to a lack of technique. I read somewhere Kurt Rosenwinkel say he wish he had better technique(!) That totally puzzled me. The argument was the great technique leads to more freedom to express your ideas. I am also an advocate of this.

For those who are trying this picking technique, you need to stick to it for a while before it clicks. I made many attempts to try it before and always came to the conclusion that my traditional grip was better. I decided this time around that I would just stick to it for a while and it is only recently after about 4 weeks of intense practice that I am hearing the difference. Gronyiad's pick flex revelation is spot on. Until that works, you're not doing it quite right.

I don't know if I will stick to this for good but I can see benefits in economy of movement and relaxation of the right hand. No tensing at all.

[destinytot]

The players in that all-star Donna Lee clip were all good sports. I imagine you really had to be there, but what I enjoyed most was OP (channelling Tatum as usual) and NHOP.

[destinytot]

you will lock your index in the relevant way when you write (probably)

as soon as you do that - and you've locked the pick between two locked digits - you will be able to feel the note being produced by the pick snapping back through the string. the give in your index finger will be preventing you from feeling this (plus using a rigid pick - if you are).

¡Muchísimas gracias, Groyniad!

Ex nihilo nihil fit.

Attachment 13612

(Source: A Good Pencil Grip Can Make All The Difference - Hip Homeschool Moms)

[MarkRhodes]

im trying to separate the real from the "I like Benson, so his way must be better." For example, Fep's, yours, an de j's posts are very practical. Yeah, I called Gronyiad out on some stuff that was completely based in opinion. That's what I'm calling magic--the unquantifiable.

that's uncalled for? If it is hen I'll take a hike. But that's really insulting to me. I'm trying to cut through the crap and get to the bottom of some very real things about my technique.

Jeff, I apologize for insulting you.
I think the equation opinion = magic is not going to catch on. First, there are highly informed opinions (-such as when a good mechanic listen to your car motor and tells you what he thinks is causing that whirring sound that worries you, or closer to home, when Reg gives some advice about technique to a young player who has, um, asked for it.) and there are pure moonshine opinions (-"I think if we all just affirmed each other more, there would be peace in the valley.")

The opinions on this thread about Benson picking by those who have worked at it awhile and discussed it with others who have, are informed opinions. Fallible, of course, and passionately expressed, no doubt, but informed. Gronyiad posted a video to show what he was getting at. That's not "crap." Talk about insulting someone!

Much of what we discuss at Jazz Guitar Online---tone, feel, creativity, improvisation---is hard to quantify. In this thread, member after member has stated that they can play faster and cleaner this way. That actually can be quantifed!

[MarkRhodes]

Attachment 13612

(Source: A Good Pencil Grip Can Make All The Difference - Hip Homeschool Moms)

Funny, but I've heard several guitar teachers mention that one of the worst "bad habits" a beginner is likely to develop is the "pencil grip," which is seen as ruinous (except for strumming).

I find it fascinating to think of the Benson grip in relation to a pencil grip because I have spent many hours with a pencil (or pen) in my hand, taking notes in class, writing love letters, filling journals with lyrics, copying memorable passages from books....

[MarkRhodes]

Anyone who has heard me play knows I'm not about speed, partially because I just don't have the chops to play fast.

Let's despense with this speed thing. The questions:

1) Isn't being able to swing a huge part of playing jazz?

2) Do you need to play eighth notes?

3) If the band calls a tune at 300 bpm, don't you need to be able to play eighth notes at that tempo?

4) Isn't speed necessary in jazz?

If the answer to 1 through 3 is yes, then the answer to 4 has to be yes.

I agree with this. I think the relaxed feel that comes with using the Benson approach improves one's playing / feel at moderate tempos too. Also, it frees one up to practice other things because it doesn't take as long to get a heed 'to tempo' this way. Before, I was so ANXIOUS when a fast tune came along (-can I hang? will I blow it? what to play, what to play?) that it made the experience more like a dreaded exam than a chance to play music. Now, I don't worry so much. This doesn't make me great. But it keeps my head in the game, so to speak, and lessens the anxiety that once plagued my playing. That in itself is worth the effort. It's more fun to play now.

Also, when something doesn't work, or I have trouble with a piece, I can focus on what the actual problem is rather than fall into an "I s*ck" funk. I don't suck. I can play. Great? Nah, but better than before and the future seems bright. Can't put a price on how much better my life seems to me!

[Patrick2]

Good point about Jim Hall who is one of my favorite guitarists. Speed was not his forte. I remember a take of Scrapple from the Apple at an up tempo, and it seemed to me he struggled with the head at tempo. His solo sounded good though. It was at about 240 bpm.

So, I'd agree that one doesn't have to be able to pull off the 300 bpm tempos to be a jazz guitarist. It's just those dang drummers and horn players like to count off tunes at those kind of tempos.

"Those dang drummers and horn players . . " That's funny! I got a chuckle out of that.

Nothing at all wrong with band mates occasionally counting off tunes at hyper speed tempos . . . unless they're doing so to intentionally embarass a band mate that they suspect can't hang at that tempo. To some (many) jazz musicians it's really great fun. I love seeing the high fives and laughs at the end of a tune counted off at hyper speed. It's kinda like they're saying to each other . . . . "Holy shit!!! How the hell did we make it through THAT one alive?" But similarly, there's nothing wrong with not always being able to hang with other band mates at 300 bpm . . . as you recognized in a great jazz guitarist like Jim Hall . . . or another like Kenny Burrell. What would Sal Salvadore have sounded like if he tried to blow over Donna Lee at the tempo Joe Pass did? Also, at any given gig or jam . . how many tunes are actually called out at 300 bpm? Not that many at all . . right?

I think Jeff . . Mr. B. says it well when he states this about speed . . . "I like to know I have some for those times when I do need it" . . or something to that effect.

[MarkRhodes]

Henry Johnson is a great example, too, because if you look online there are some message board exchanges where he explains that Benson taught him his technique as a solution to uptempo situations. Apparently, Johnson was struggling to keep up with the McDuff group until Benson starting giving him lessons. He credits Benson's system with helping him break through barriers.

Again, works for me. Might be worth checking out if you're refining technique.

Now that you mention, didn't George struggle with some of those tempos early in his career? Tal Farlow had to learn to play REALLY fast to hang with Red Norvo, and Tal did. He didn't Benson pick but he found a way to play clean and fast. It genuinely seems to be harder to do this on guitar than on the saxophone or a piano. Frank Gambale came up with "sweeping" to allow for this, but as much as I admire his chops, I don't want to play that way. What I love about George and JC Stylles is that they can blaze while playing that-kinda-jazz-guitar-I-dig. That's what I want to do.