Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=Professor Jones;447563]Why is that important to keep the index straight ? I never saw benson do that : as far as I can tell he just lets the index, ring and pinky fingers relax and curl naturally. That´s how I do it.

Concerning the sweep, yes it is hard to make it sound right rythmically but with practice it becomes easier. There are a lot of really nice jazz language using descending arpeggios that just lends itself perfectly to the sweep technique. I don ´t think playing them with alternate picking will lead to satisfying results.

I find it a bit difficult to understand the difficulty of making a sweep sound right rhythmically. Usually sweeps are played within the rhythmic time values of the line they're being played within . . no?? If I'm running a line with straight 8th notes, my sweep, whether ascending or descending needs to be started and completed within the same time value of a derivative thereof . . just like anything else . . . does it not?

I totally agree that while the very same notes in a sweep can be played using a non sweeping picking method (depending or course upon the tempo of the tune) . . . they will have a totally different result . . . just like slurring a note will sound totally different than picking it. Ya just gotta know which dynamic you want your playing to express at that particular moment of your improv.

[Patrick2]

its amazing the way that the tiniest modifications change the sound and feel of it. i've just been finding that the harder i lock down on the pick with those two digits the more control i have of the feel of what i play - the better the sound and the more i can finesse it

great stuff

But wasn't it exactly the same with the more traditional picking method . . that the tiniest modifications change the sound and the feel of it"? Pick orientation, holding a pick tighter and digging in, holding a pick looser and finessing the strings. No matter how one chooses to shape their wrist or hold their pick . . they are ultimately in control of shaping the dynamics of the tone they get from plucking a string . . . or they're not in control of it. As I see it, the only difference in the traditional method vs the Benson method, (or some variation of the Benson method) . . is that the wrist bends in the opposite direction and the pick orientation changer from / to \.

(not specific to Groyniad's psot);;

While I have no intentions or desires (at this point) to change my picking method, which I feel I am totally in control over . . to a whole new method which I will need to work feverishly at gaining the same level of control over. . . . I continue to follow this thread with great interest. I can definitely see where a Benson type technique lends itself to a more efficient motion. But, I've yet to see anything done with one which can't be done with the other. However, with the amount of endoresement this Benson type technique is getting from very credible players . . there's got to be more benefit to it than I'm understanding. I guess I'm missing something.?

[MarkRhodes]

But, I've yet to see anything done with one which can't be done with the other. However, with the amount of endorsement this Benson type technique is getting from very credible players . . there's got to be more benefit to it than I'm understanding. I guess I'm missing something.?

If you're happy doing what you're doing, keep doing what you're doing.

[Nabil B]

I find it a bit difficult to understand the difficulty of making a sweep sound right rhythmically. Usually sweeps are played within the rhythmic time values of the line they're being played within . . no??

I think the difficulty stems from the fact that sweeping makes you play several notes with one movement. In that case, adjusting the rhythm means adsjusting the speed at which the pick sweeps, and this is not always easy to do.

[MarkRhodes]

I think the difficulty stems from the fact that sweeping makes you play several notes with one movement. In that case, adjusting the rhythm means adjusting the speed at which the pick sweeps, and this is not always easy to do.

Right. And further, when you sweep, the notes can easily blur into one another. But I've added a sweeping exercise to next week's practice log. We'll see.....

[destinytot]

I've yet to see anything done with one which can't be done with the other.

There's a level on which I could honestly say the same (so much depends on our frame of reference, and on our scale of values).

But that would be quite disingenuous of me.

Personally, I've no wish to 'burn' (though neither have I any wish to spoil others' fun).

My own delight in this technique comes from the ease and comfort with which I now find myself able to spontaneously produce well-organised and coherent lines on the instrument.

[ecj]

But wasn't it exactly the same with the more traditional picking method . . that the tiniest modifications change the sound and the feel of it"? Pick orientation, holding a pick tighter and digging in, holding a pick looser and finessing the strings. No matter how one chooses to shape their wrist or hold their pick . . they are ultimately in control of shaping the dynamics of the tone they get from plucking a string . . . or they're not in control of it. As I see it, the only difference in the traditional method vs the Benson method, (or some variation of the Benson method) . . is that the wrist bends in the opposite direction and the pick orientation changer from / to \.

(not specific to Groyniad's psot);;

While I have no intentions or desires (at this point) to change my picking method, which I feel I am totally in control over . . to a whole new method which I will need to work feverishly at gaining the same level of control over. . . . I continue to follow this thread with great interest. I can definitely see where a Benson type technique lends itself to a more efficient motion. But, I've yet to see anything done with one which can't be done with the other. However, with the amount of endoresement this Benson type technique is getting from very credible players . . there's got to be more benefit to it than I'm understanding. I guess I'm missing something.?

This is a good post, Patrick. Mr. B asked the same thing a ways back, and I answered there in more detail, but the benefit of the technique for me is that I can do things with it that I could not do with standard grip. There are, of course, monster players out there who can do this stuff with the standard grip. I'm not one of them.

Benson picking worked for me. It allows me to be way more relaxed and still play fast. I'm getting to the point where fast licks are not something I have to work up to and be afraid of, just another texture. If you can play as fast as you need to and stay relaxed with standard grip, I don't know why you'd switch.

I like the tone more, too, and generally feel more comfortable with the technique than I ever did with standard. Maybe a side effect of being a taller player and getting to let my hand fall below the bridge rather than trying to keep it above by lifting my elbow.

[Patrick2]

Right. And further, when you sweep, the notes can easily blur into one another. But I've added a sweeping exercise to next week's practice log. We'll see.....

I think the idea of sweeping a phrase is to have the notes blend into one another . . . is it not?

[fep]

However, with the amount of endoresement this Benson type technique is getting from very credible players . . there's got to be more benefit to it than I'm understanding. I guess I'm missing something.?

For me it's easier to play faster and stay relaxed.

This may be of interest to you. If you relax your hand and then let it shake like someone that has a hand tremor, how does it shake? For me it shakes just like the Benson picking motion. I interpret that as the Benson Picking motion is a very natural motion and consequently is an easy motion to stay relaxed with.

If you can play as fast as you need to and stay relaxed with standard grip, I don't know why you'd switch.

+1

I think ecj makes a very valid point. I certainly am not advocating that others change their picking method if they are already getting go results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[mr. beaumont]

Not necessarily. It's just unidirectional picking. A sweep where the notes blend together is a really slow strum

[Groyniad]

"I don't know why you'd switch.

I like the tone more, too, and generally feel more comfortable with the technique than I ever did with standard. " ecj

didn't you just answer your own question there ecj? for me the improvement in tone is incredibly exciting - low notes are fabulously clear and well articulated - high ones ring out with a clarity they've never had before. and this isn't a vague impression one gets - it knocks the socks off.

you know the reason jim hall sounds so great is that he uses this method to set the strings a-sounding - and he sounds a very long way from gb

and patrick - yes the old method is responsive to all sorts of changes in the way you grip and strike etc. - but not in the way that this method is. in the old method its really you that's in direct control of the sound (that's why its so hard to achieve consistency of tone and attack) with this method its the pick. its fascinating to try it with a fender light pick because you feel the essence of the technique more clearly but the sound is modified (less full). and its not a bad thing that its the pick that makes the sound - because the consistency of the way it moves through the string is absolutely impossible to match by trying to hit the string in the same way with every note in the phrase.

and professor jones - the locked index is fundamental - its only if you lock down on the pick that movements in IT become fundamental to the sound-production. the parallel with hand-writing is illuminating (though we're not in the business of making sounds but graphemes). its fundamental to mainstream handwriting technique that all the movements take place around a locked down grip on the pen.

it is a lovely experience to feel your feel increase as you trap the pick more effectively between thumb and index - anyone know what i mean?

anyway - i thought i had it for months before nailing (the basics) the other night - and the crucial thing was learning how to lock the index (by pushing thumb against it hard enough for it to bend back a bit - as in using a pen) and getting a pick with the right flex to it.

its worth saying this stuff even if it is annoying to some. if you've always used a rigid pick (and everyone i know has) there is just no way you have experienced the musicality of benson picking. there is a eureka moment - your tone is transformed - and its obvious to you that practice will bring a continual improvement in phrasing and articulation to match the improvement in sound.

it does not need to be a harder sound or even a brighter sound - one will learn to control and shape it very quickly - i find that i can play big ballad chords and get a much softer and more musical sound than i've ever heard before - and that a hard strum (as in some fast tempo comping) produces a much more convincing sound too (easier to hear all the chord tones)

and i'm with you destinytot - speed is incidental - and i'm already hearing things much better than i have before - it will improve what i play not just how i play it.

[mr. beaumont]

So all those other great guitarists who didn't use Benson picking didn't know what they were missing in tone. Wow, I learn something new every day.

[MarkRhodes]

I think the idea of sweeping a phrase is to have the notes blend into one another . . . is it not?

If so, then I'm getting more "blend" than I want. ;o)

[Groyniad]

'if it ain't broke don't fix it' - sure but maybe throw it away and get a whole new one that (with a bit of work) will be much better.

you could certainly be sufficiently invested in the one you've got that you reasonably refuse to throw it away - barney kessel would not throw out his technique on hearing benson for the first time (though he might have quite a philosophical time of it for a while)

the point is - and its the sort of point people just love to hedge because its controversial and attracts the classic 'that's just your opinion' response - this is not just another way to pick. tuck andres was right. there is a 'picking problem' and this is obviously the best solution that has been found to it. the picking problem is - what you do to improve articulation and speed damages tone. gb has shown us a way to pick that improves articulation and speed at the same time as drastically improving tone.

here's another way to put it - benson sounds amazing (largely) because of his picking technique - most other masters of guitar sound amazing despite their picking technique (except inasmuch as it resembles the benson approach - e.g. jim hall, and at a push, wes)

people can overcome the most extraordinary obstacles when they've got the bit between their teeth - but the best developed traditional approach will sound stiff compared to the best developed benson approach (as well as relatively restrictive)

and forgive the number of words - i talk too much sure - but in this context, having put months and months into this and finally making the breakthrough the other night - i've got a lot to say

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=ecj;447643]This is a good post, Patrick. Mr. B asked the same thing a ways back, and I answered there in more detail, but the benefit of the technique for me is that I can do things with it that I could not do with standard grip. There are, of course, monster players out there who can do this stuff with the standard grip. I'm not one of them.

Benson picking worked for me. It allows me to be way more relaxed and still play fast. I'm getting to the point where fast licks are not something I have to work up to and be afraid of, just another texture.

If you can play as fast as you need to and stay relaxed with standard grip, I don't know why you'd switch.

And this is exactly why I keep posting with the questions and comments I have. I'm not trying to obtrude my opinion over and above any else's. I'm continuing to explore whether or not I should even consider attempting to switch. As it realtes to comfort and speed, I can't imaging when it might be necessary *for me* to play faster than I'm currently capable of playing. But, I can only achieve that speed by not attempting to pick every note. That does trouble me. I use quite a bit of different types of slurs . . which are usually driven by feel or desire. If I do attempt to pick every note . . the technique is not as cleanly stated. I'm trying to come to terms with whether I put more time into increasing cleanly executed speed when picking every note using my current and comfortable technique . . or do I put the time into trying to adapt to a form of the Benson technique.

I like the tone more, too, and generally feel more comfortable with the technique than I ever did with standard. Maybe a side effect of being a taller player and getting to let my hand fall below the bridge rather than trying to keep it above by lifting my elbow.

I think the tone is one of the main reasons I'm somewhat resistant to the technique. GB's tone is probably the only thing I dislike about him or his playing . . except of course when he's playing without a pick. I find his tone to be totally devoid of any dynamic variation . . . just one constant/consistant tone. Not sure that's what I want . . even though I am sure that's what he and others want.

[Groyniad]

So all those other great guitarists who didn't use Benson picking didn't know what they were missing in tone. Wow, I learn something new every day.

listen to the cuts man - just listen

and jim hall benson picks (with a very flexy pick and light gauge strings)

and wes (with a better downstroke sound and v. limited upstrokes - this is a push, but its on the money i think - the feel tips you off that they're doing basically the same thing)

you can refine a bad technique to the point at which its disadvantages become almost indiscernible (this is true with golf, swimming, running) - and it can also be true that the way a guitarist has learned to cope with the disadvantages can come to play a big role in what makes them sound like them and not someone else. but from a technical point of view it is obvious that the benson technique is superior - not just different - better.

its easy for me to commit to it because i've achieved so little on the guitar up to this point (hundreds and hundreds of gigs - but the overriding impression i'm left with is one of struggling to make things work - in a way that even quite inexperienced horn players and piano players obviously don't have to)

have you watched the hot licks 'art of jazz guitar' video? i'm genuinely interested in this - because it just seems obvious to me that he's mastered the guitar like no one else has. (this is not about the sort of thing he plays by the way - though it doesn't get any more serious from a pure jazz point of view than the shiit he's playing on that video.

[destinytot]

it is a lovely experience to feel your feel increase as you trap the pick more effectively between thumb and index - anyone know what i mean?

Gray-Nicolls

[MarkRhodes]

- this is not just another way to pick. tuck andres was right. there is a 'picking problem' and this is obviously the best solution that has been found to it. the picking problem is - what you do to improve articulation and speed damages tone. gb has shown us a way to pick that improves articulation and speed at the same time as drastically improving tone.

I think this is right. As for the "picking problem," I agree there is one but I don't think it bothers everyone.

For example, If someone is playing solo at mid tempos, speed isn't a crushing need. (Not everyone playing jazz is playing bop tunes.)

Also, if a player is gigging a lot, he might not feel he has the time to woodshed a new (to him) picking technique that might take some months to get smooth.

Finally, it is very obvious to those of us who have worked with this that we can play X, Y, and Z much faster than before. But it is not obvious to someone else who hears this what a difference the technique would make for them.

[Groyniad]

Gray-Nicolls

cricket bats?

[Groyniad]

I think this is right. As for the "picking problem," I agree there is one but I don't think it bothers everyone.

For example, If someone is playing solo at mid tempos, speed isn't a crushing need. (Not everyone playing jazz is playing bop tunes.)

Also, if a player is gigging a lot, he might not feel he has the time to woodshed a new (to him) picking technique that might take some months to get smooth.

Finally, it is very obvious to those of us who have worked with this that we can play X, Y, and Z much faster than before. But it is not obvious to someone else who hears this what a difference the technique would make for them.

+1 on medium tempo tunes - and of course there are lots and lots of players who really would be foolish to try to redesign their technique from the ground up. i can imagine an experienced and able player trying it - getting it right enough to appreciate how much it could do for them - and deciding (reasonably) to ignore it anyway.

but its all about feel - we all want better feel - better control of dynamic range and attack etc etc - its easy to over-emphasize the consequences for speed. i've been playing tenor madness for over twenty years - at medium tempos the way i play it now is hugely better than the way i've ever played it before.

[mr. beaumont]

Lots of BS to wade through here, so I'll just post a video of a guitar player who sounds great despite his horrid technique.

Its fine to love a technique you've found that works for you, but the hyperbole is getting out of hand.

[Groyniad]

I think the tone is one of the main reasons I'm somewhat resistant to the technique. GB's tone is probably the only thing I dislike about him or his playing . . except of course when he's playing without a pick. I find his tone to be totally devoid of any dynamic variation . . . just one constant/consistant tone. Not sure that's what I want . . even though I am sure that's what he and others want.[/QUOTE]


his sound is brighter than my taste allowed for - until recently

but the stuff about dynamic variation could not be further from the truth - really

the dynamic swells (and variations in timbre) in this playing are totally compelling - just listen to the first 8 or 16 bars

above everything gb is an expressive player in the great tradition (and that's even clear with his pop stuff)

[Groyniad]

Lots of BS to wade through here, so I'll just post a video of a guitar player who sounds great despite his horrid technique.

Its fine to love a technique you've found that works for you, but the hyperbole is getting out of hand.

no it isn't getting out of hand - benson is a truly thrilling player to be ranked with louis armstrong, nat king cole and wes montgommery - this dude sounds quite nice but really - we won't be talking about him in fifty years time.

the reason its so interesting to rave about this guy in this way is that his recorded output could so easily make you think he was a bit of a joke. a bit like armstrong in the fifties. that makes it worth getting really really excited - especially in a context like this one - about how good he is.

i'm hurt by your laconic insult. i don't expect that sort of thing in a conversation like this. i already apologized for talking too much. and i'm talking too much because i'm excited.

i am not claiming that everyone ought to use this technique. and i'm also insisting that it is not just a case of - well it works for me.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm sorry for being laconic--I just see no need to use paragraphs when I have such a simple reply.

Benson's great. Hasn't made an album I want to listen to in 30 something years, but he's great. But there's some things in your posts that are beyond ridiculous, and I'm calling you out.

First of all, to say Benson sounds great mostly because of his picking technique is crazy, and an insult to him.

There is nothing inherently "musical" about a technique. Nothing.

Furthermore, to say other players sound great despite their technique is horse shit. Kreisberg (who we certainly might be talking about in 50 years) has great technique. So does Gilad Hekselman. And Jimmy Raney. And Adam Rogers. And...a hundred other players with great tone who can play damn fast.

To suggest otherwise is just plain silly.

[destinytot]

cricket bats?

Yup!

it is a lovely experience to feel your feel increase as you trap the pick more effectively between thumb and index - anyone know what i mean?

The feel of middling the ball - and knocking it for six!

Pure tone - with or without amplification and/or "Tone Controls" to hide a multitude of sins.

And precision.

"Strumming on one string."