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Yeah, I use the 351s. (I didn't know there were 451s.) Which reminds me: I need to order some more, as I'm down to three....
Originally Posted by destinytot
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07-29-2014 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by destinytot
what a great find - thanks for this!
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Wow, Benson and Basie! Amazing clip.
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There are full songs from the actual concert up on YouTube, too. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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I really really like the tone JC gets on his tutorial video. I like JC's tone more than Benson's tone (it's a subjective thing). It seems to me that on the video JC has a lighter attack, less pick flex. Awesome tone.
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07-30-2014, 09:06 AM #381destinytot GuestMe too. And when he plays over Cherokee (?) at 300+ bpm on the tutorial, GB is the furthest thing from my mind. I've got nothing but admiration for what he's crafted out of his study of GB.I really really like the tone JC gets on his tutorial video.
I watched the tutorial again and nearly kicked myself an hour in. The info's all in there... but trying to 'get it' feels a bit like trying to fill a thimble in a waterfall. Thank goodness for support (and intervention)!
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[QUOTE=Groyniad;446722]but guys - part of the pay off the GB thing is that you don't have to think about any of this ultra complex picking stuff. just get the feel - get more and more used to it - and you'll find you don't have to worry about picking patterns. [QUOTE]
I agree that with Benson picking the difference between downstrokes and upstrokes is minimized and that for many things "it makes no difference." Most of the time, I don't worry about picking patterns at all. Yet those Stetina exercises remain good though because you should be able to play them all equally fast but if you can't, you know there's a glitch in your picking.
My biggest challenge is with sweeping---I never really got that down. In one sense it is easier this way but I find myself sweeping too fast. Sometimes I alternate pick things I could sweep because it's easier (for me) to keep the rhythmic feel solid. That may change.
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I agree. The more you work with this, the more you realize he covers in the tutorial. But as he says there, it is too much information to absorb at once. Just getting The Shape right takes awhile, and it's only after you get that down (-somewhat, at least) you're not able to start the fine-tuning such things as the amount of pick flex or the proper angle for you. The slightest changes can yield large tonal differences--it takes a bit of experimentation to figure out just which way you want to go with it. Originally Posted by destinytot
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Hey guys, somewhat new to this site and definitely new to this thread but not new to Mark and ecj. I got the tutorial last night and just started working with it about an hour ago. Man, the technique feels so weird... but I can already see how you just slice through the strings. Luckily it appears I have a support group of great guys on this site!
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Yeah, that's what we have become: a Benson Picking Support Group. ("Hi, I'm Mark and I'm a Benson picker." "Hi, Mark!") Originally Posted by oligonucleotide
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"Hello, my name is Evan, and I haven't changed my pick grip in 16 days." Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Oh man, you guys just killed me. If I had been drinking anything, it definitely would have exited through my nose.
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Ha! O, god, it's not funny why that is so funny, you know? Originally Posted by ecj
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Hi all
I looked at the JC Styles video aagain at the beginning of the week. Tried to keep my index finger and thumb as straight as possible, just trying to get the basic shape together. However I found that the next day I had quite a bit of pain above and below the knucke of my thumb. Wondering if I overstretched my tenons that pulls the thumb straigh. I have been taking it easy the last 2 days but I stiil have the pain. Was going to do a video at the weekend for you to evaluate but maybe I should not try too much at the moment.
Anyone else experienced problems like that?
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I'm sorry to hear that. No, I haven't had any pain. I worried that I might but none so far. I wondered / worried how that muscle-with-the-long-weird-name between the thumb and index would feel but I don't feel anything there. I notice the 'mound' is higher than it used to be when I play but there's no pain. My thumb never hurts or tingles at all. Originally Posted by fm42
I don't know what to tell you about this. Pain is usually a sign you're overdoing something. My thumb is locked but not straight. (It looks more like a banana.) If I tried to force it straight, that would probably bother me....
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I don't know if it's relevant to the fellow complaining of pain, but to tighten my grip while practicing this technique, I actually apply pressure with my index finger. I don't squeeze the thumb muscles much on their own, only to counter the force of my index on the other side of the "clamp." Doing it this way applies the pressure upwards towards your head, which results in the pick rotating a bit counterclockwise and facilitating a useful angle. If you apply pressure with your thumb instead, everything tends to turn in the opposite direction, down towards the floor, which straightens the pick angle (not desirable). It also seems less comfortable.
At least that's how it's working for me.
I've played with this technique numerous times over the years, as the threads and articles on the subject make it legendary. But every time I've moved on. This time, Groyniad's comments here about pick flex really shone some light in a way I had not connected with before (thanks!). However I still struggle with the fact that I get more tonal control, more subtlety, and more overall speed with my old technique. I can see how the Benson method, once relatively mastered, can result in a relaxed and carefree right hand. But so far the tone, which is great, is more one-dimensional to my ears than what I'm capable of achieving with other grips. In other words, I can't vary the tone as much because the technique seems more restrictive. Maybe it's just a matter of practice?
My normal grip is basically a slice through the strings in the opposite direction from Benson, towards the bridge for downstrokes. I don't hit the strings straight on (except on purpose, for tonal reasons). The negative is that my hand is twisted a bit awkwardly, and my shoulder is hunched up higher in order to facilitate the position.
The other thing this has sadly illuminated for me is that my left hand (oh yeah, remember that one?) is not as capable of running through the motions, playing my speedy cliche licks, when the right hand is in Benson mode. It suddenly has less to say, which is disturbing, and shows me that I really have to get my brain back in the game whilst improvising...
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fm42 - Pain is bad. Really bad. Don't keep doing this if you are in pain. If the muscles are tired or sore, that's one thing, but pain in your joints is a really bad sign that you are doing something you should not be doing. Post a vid.
Roger - It took a long time until I could do everything I can do with standard grip with Benson grip. Now I can go back and forth pretty easily, but I can't get my standard picking speed up to where the Benson picking is. If you think about it, it's not that different. Your brain is just scrambled up. Anything you can play with your normal technique you'll be able to play with the Benson picking after a little bit of practice.
It's not magic. You still have to practice all your stuff starting from a very slow tempo and making small increases. For me, it just made the ceiling way higher. That, and I like the tone and feel more. If you think about how long it took to be able to play anything on guitar at first, it shouldn't come as a surprise that you can't master this overnight or even after a week.
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A bit of JC live, "Samba Steps."
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its nearly magic ecj - i mean nothing is magic - babies aren't magic - but babies and the benson pick flex are damn close
hit me hard the other day - a crucial step for me was locking the index finger. it felt super-odd to start with - but without the thumb lock and the index lock you ain't in the game
and to see how important this is think about using a pen to write. there are endless subtle movements of the hand/wrist/arm - but they all move around a locked grip with the index bent back a bit so as to lock up properly.
i read people saying this before and just didn't get it - but it really is what (at least most of) us do when we write. and we do it because we need such fine control of the movement of the nib (man).Last edited by Groyniad; 07-31-2014 at 01:57 PM. Reason: addition
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its amazing the way that the tiniest modifications change the sound and feel of it. i've just been finding that the harder i lock down on the pick with those two digits the more control i have of the feel of what i play - the better the sound and the more i can finesse it
great stuff
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and btw mark - i know exactly what you mean about swept triplets coming out too fast - especially descending ones. that will work itself out in the wash i think.
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I hope so! I was playing a Herb Ellis line today from his book "Swing Blues." It's an easy example, not even a lick, just an arpeggio out of a simple shape. The chord is C Major 7 and starts on the high E and goes down to the low, then back. The shape lies between the 5th and 8th frets. So at one point in the second measure you have this: Originally Posted by Groyniad
E
B 5
G 5
D 5
A 7
E 8
That used to snag me. It's one of the things that told me I really had to iron out my picking. I can play it better now but if I sweep it, it goes too fast. I can alternate pick it (-which is my instinct), though that is obviously less efficient.
I played it better today than I used to but at the same time I realized, "I either gotta get this right or just avoid this kind of line."
Before, you see, my picking was suspect. But now my picking is better. Still being refined but I can't see switching from Benson picking. So if this doesn't 'iron itself out,' I'll just have to avoid lines that run like that (-unless the tempo is slow).
Now that I've made my picking choice, I might have other choices to make about fingerings and such....
Aw! This didn't keep the spacing right. The order of notes in the example is C (E string) E (A string) G (D string) C (G string) E (B string.) Sorry about that.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 07-31-2014 at 06:08 PM. Reason: choreography
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Really, though, does anyone play something like that with alternate picking at fast tempos?
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Yeah, me! I might not play that at a really fast tempo---or I might do it and figure if it's a little 'off' who will notice? I'm more concerned about the feel. Long sweeps feel odd to me. (I tend to be fine with short ones on the higher strings.) Originally Posted by ecj
It may have something to do with a change in hand position. Also, with Benson picking if you just play this straight down it is almost like a strum!
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Why is that important to keep the index straight ? I never saw benson do that : as far as I can tell he just lets the index, ring and pinky fingers relax and curl naturally. That´s how I do it.
Concerning the sweep, yes it is hard to make it sound right rythmically but with practice it becomes easier. There are a lot of really nice jazz language using descending arpeggios that just lends itself perfectly to the sweep technique. I don ´t think playing them with alternate picking will lead to satisfying results.Last edited by Nabil B; 08-01-2014 at 05:03 AM.
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