Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[MarkRhodes]

A very interesting question that seems to get always vague answers here; and that take us back to the ambiguous and somewhat "dangerous" "generalization" that it's all about rest strokes on every down stroke & strings change. well it can't be as you clearly can see on this video with Chet Atkins.

What a great clip! Thanks. Two masters "side by side." What a treat.

As for the rest stroke, I'm not trained in that. I get the notion---pick through a string and come to 'rest' on an adjacent one---but with Benson picking and the pick's steep angle, one can 'rest' against the next string without having picked through the adjacent one with any special force.

I don't try to always change with a downstroke either. In general, I don't think much about pick direction at all unless I'm playing an arpeggio that crosses two or more strings. (I used to alternate pick such things but now I'm trying to "sweep" them.) That may become a focus later, but right now, it isn't.

[MarkRhodes]

The example below shows a more traditional across the neck fingering (1a and 2a) and then a variation going up the neck (1b and 2b). 1b and 2b should be played with the same fingering on each pattern. i.e. in 1b the first three notes form the G triad and you use 2nd finger, 1st finger and 4th finger to play the G, B and D.

Thanks, Mark! That's good stuff.

[MarkRhodes]

I find this clip of Dan Wilson extremely helpful:

Man, Dan's got it going on!

[fm42]

Hi all

I got the JC video a few month ago and had an initial stab at it. What put me off was the straight index finger bit. I tried that but found it very difficult as the first joint of my index finger seems to be bent in a bit and I had to use quite an amount of force (pushing with the thumb) to get it straigt. This seemed very unconfortable.

Now it seems I got it wrong anyway as the key words seem to be natural and relaxed.

I really want to give it another try now especially since I had a major meltdown last week trying to get my right hand sorted out.
I am playing over 10 years now, sing the traditional way of holding the pick, and I still fall apart with 16th notes at above 80bpm. And tht's with scales. Lines don't even get that high! And what's even worse my picking gets very erratic at slow speeds. Then it's really a hit and miss affair and very jerky!

I tried every pick between 0.38 and 2.5, resting my pinky, resting the palm, resting the thumb, not resting at all but was never able to achieve a smooth motion. I could do a tremolo but only by rotating my hand that the palm faced more towards the floor and tensing up and using a movement from my forearm but there was a huge gap between the speed I could reach with normal playing and the tremolo.

At this stage I feel I really have nothing to loose but hopefully a lot to gain.

[MarkRhodes]

I got the JC video a few month ago and had an initial stab at it. What put me off was the straight index finger bit. I tried that but found it very difficult as the first joint of my index finger seems to be bent in a bit and I had to use quite an amount of force (pushing with the thumb) to get it straigt. This seemed very unconfortable.

Now it seems I got it wrong anyway as the key words seem to be natural and relaxed.



At this stage I feel I really have nothing to loose but hopefully a lot to gain.

You've come to the right place and we're glad you're here!
I found the "straight" index (-tip, or top phalange) a challenge too. You're not alone. It's not so much about being straight as it is about not curling in any. (JC's actually looks bent back a bit which is not straight but the key is that it is not bent in.)

Is there any chance you could post a picture of your hand or a short video of you playing? Those help us out a lot. (If you scroll back in this thread, you'll see that I've done my share of "is this how you do it?" posts.)

[nunocpinto]

Nunocpinto - I think you're wrong about the rest stroke thing. You don't have to play rest strokes with this technique, but Benson pretty clearly does. Rodney Jones coaches all his students to do rest strokes, too.

ECJ, i sincerely dont think i am wrong. I know that Rodney Jones plays like that, and that's why he get's the results he get's, and that is nowhere near the "lightness" and dexterity of how GB plays.

let's just for example grab an octave for the sake of simplicity. E on the 9th fret (g strings) and E on the 12th fret (high e string). You want to play this for a few bars; 4 notes per bar starting on the low e; how do you pick this?.

You start with a downstroke and rest on the b string? and then? you raise the pick and do the same on the high E? this seems logical or practical? it doesn't. it's simple physics and guitar mechanics.

Well i would outside pick it obviously; with a downstroke ( free stroke) on the low E and an Upstroke on the high E and repeat.

everything else will not work, and it's highly impratical and inefficient.

[AlainJazz]

My index is not straight. I find that too unnatural. And it still works for me.

[nunocpinto]

I find this clip of Dan Wilson extremely helpful:

destenytot; why is that video helpful? what Dan is doing is sweep picking plain and straight, like any rock guitarist might do it: You are not going to play that in a solo, the goal is to be able to play any note of the arpeggio in any order you like, and that is not possible utilizing sweep picking.

It would be interesting if he explained how to play that minor arpeggio in a no sequential pattern, but resting on the next string will never let him play that in a efficient way, and much less be able to play it up to speed besides it's original sequential form.

[destinytot]

Man, Dan's got it going on!

Not only can he play at any speed he wishes, his lines are really tasteful too!

[destinytot]

Hi nunocpinto,

what Dan is doing is sweep picking plain and straight

I find this particular video (extremely) helpful because it demonstrates how perfect execution can be achieved. I find that it also points to exciting possibilities as a tool for improvisation.

I find the exercise alone to be excellent for building dexterity, but I also find there to be a lot more to take from the video clip than dexterity-building exercises alone. @2m45, when Dan repeatedly 'sweeps' the major 7th arpeggio, he proceeds to demonstrate how the arpeggio can set up a flowing be-bop line.

You are not going to play that in a solo

Deft, rapid execution of arpeggios - ascending/descending over two octaves in rhythmically strong phrases to target chord tones and movements - certainly fits in with my idea of this language.

Surely it comes down to the effect - in a musical context - on the listener?

[MarkRhodes]

Let us make sure we are all on the same page vis a vis rest strokes + Benson picking.

Here is a definition of rest stroke:

>>>>Rest-stroke is the most important typically-Manouche picking technique used for choruses and solos. One string is plucked downwards and the pick ends its run on the next string excepted in the case when the upper E string is played. This movement is at the very base of Manouche sound and it therefore has to be worked out and be played effortlessly (though it may look simple at first glance).<<<<<

Rest-stroke - Gypsy Jazz Guitar Wiki

When we say 'rest stroke' do we mean just this, or do we mean more than this? (Is 'changing with a downstroke when moving from a lower to a higher string' assumed to be part of the definition of 'rest stroke'?)

[destinytot]

@ecj: Exciting! Go for it!

[ecj]

ECJ, i sincerely dont think i am wrong. I know that Rodney Jones plays like that, and that's why he get's the results he get's, and that is nowhere near the "lightness" and dexterity of how GB plays.

let's just for example grab an octave for the sake of simplicity. E on the 9th fret (g strings) and E on the 12th fret (high e string). You want to play this for a few bars; 4 notes per bar starting on the low e; how do you pick this?.

You start with a downstroke and rest on the b string? and then? you raise the pick and do the same on the high E? this seems logical or practical? it doesn't. it's simple physics and guitar mechanics.

Well i would outside pick it obviously; with a downstroke ( free stroke) on the low E and an Upstroke on the high E and repeat.

everything else will not work, and it's highly impratical and inefficient.

I would outside pick that, too. I think George would, as well. When he does big octave displacement licks you see him move his forearm in a kind of big circle to grab the top note with an upstroke.

I'm talking about a more standard bebop line comprised of whole and half steps. I think if you look at what his hand is doing, he's doing rest-strokes on each downstroke, and he does start string changes from the a down-stroke.

We know that Django, Charlie Christian, Wes and Joe Pass did this. They are all huge influences on his playing. It seems clear to me when you hear some of his fast licks that's what's going on. I think you're right that when he does the wide-interval stuff he's using different picking approaches, but I think he plays with that kind of gypsy-style system a lot.

I could be wrong, but this is what Henry Johnson and Rodney Jones said he was doing, and they actually studied with him.

[Nabil B]

The rest stroke also has me curious, looking forward to some more clarifications on that subject.

On the index position : I just let it curl naturally. My whole arm from shoulder to fingertips is relaxed, in a natural position. I don't force anything.

On another note : I'm having a problem with the low strings ringing, especially when playing arpeggios acsending. How does string muting work with that technique ?

[nunocpinto]

Let us make sure we are all on the same page vis a vis rest strokes + Benson picking.

Here is a definition of rest stroke:

>>>>Rest-stroke is the most important typically-Manouche picking technique used for choruses and solos. One string is plucked downwards and the pick ends its run on the next string excepted in the case when the upper E string is played. This movement is at the very base of Manouche sound and it therefore has to be worked out and be played effortlessly (though it may look simple at first glance).<<<<<

Rest-stroke - Gypsy Jazz Guitar Wiki

When we say 'rest stroke' do we mean just this, or do we mean more than this? (Is 'changing with a downstroke when moving from a lower to a higher string' assumed to be part of the definition of 'rest stroke'?)

Mark, that's precisely the point i am trying to get across: the idea that GB picking is not "Gypsy Jazz on an electric archtop guitar".

when that "strict" concept is applied it becomes this:

and this isn't benson picking; it's Gypsy picking on an electric Archtop with the right hand on a different position.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark, that's precisely the point i am trying to get across: the idea that GB picking is not "Gypsy Jazz on an electric archtop guitar".

Fine by me. I love to hear Gypsy Jazz but haven't tried to play it. I heard about the 'rest stroke' but it seemed to require playing harder than I cared to. (I realize I may have misunderstood the directions!)

[ecj]

Mark, that's precisely the point i am trying to get across: the idea that GB picking is not "Gypsy Jazz on an electric archtop guitar".

I think Benson picking is more like, "Wes Montgomery with a pick." This also requires rest strokes.

[nunocpinto]

I think Benson picking is more like, "Wes Montgomery with a pick." This also requires rest strokes.

ecj; i see the point you are trying to make but watch this video by the legendary Scottish guitar player Jim Mullen were he explains in detail how he plays only with the thumb / downstrokes and how that limits him and is is main problem as a guitar player.

Do you see any similarity with Georges' sound patterns, rhythm accents and overall musicality? sorry but i don't.

I dont know if you are aware but Wes did upstrokes also with is thumb.

[ecj]

ecj; i see the point you are trying to make but watch this video by the legendary Scottish guitar player Jim Mullen were he explains in detail how he plays only with the thumb / downstrokes and how that limits him and is is main problem as a guitar player.

Do you see any similarity with Georges' sound patterns, rhythm accents and overall musicality? sorry but i don't.

I dont know if you are aware but Wes did upstrokes also with is thumb.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Here's Benson playing with his typical sound patterns, rhythm accents and overall musicality with his thumb:

Do you think he's alt-picking with his thumb? The upstrokes only come after a rest stroke down on the same string, like Wes. Mullen is great, but he's a totally different player.

[ecj]

And another:

Rest strokes all over the place.

He even plays the exact octave figure you brought up earlier in this one, using rest strokes.

[nunocpinto]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

ecj, my point is how GB picking is not about rest strokes on down strokes, just that.

[ecj]

ecj, my point is how GB picking is not about rest strokes on down strokes, just that.

Do you really not think he's doing exactly that in those two videos I posted?

[Groyniad]

i've just cracked it after months and months of working at it - and i don't want to go on about it because i'm in the middle of playing (with an almost completely new sound and levels of accuracy and assurance that i've never come anywhere near before).

happened about half an hour after i got myself a bendy pick - never used one before - never ever ever

the secret is this:

you play with the flex in the pick - pushing and pulling it through the strings - you do not hit the strings at all - you don't strike them or even 'pluck' them

so its not really you that's making the note - you're letting the pick make the sound - letting it flex through the string - or forcing it to snap back through the string by pushing it and pulling it against a string it is already touching

its the flex in the pick that produces the sound - that's why the fundamental way to change the sound with this method is to change the amount the pick sticks out of your fingers - more pick sticking out = more flex = more sound / and brighter clearer sound

you can feel that its the flex in the tip of the pick that is producing the note as soon as it starts to happen - if you've always been a string-striker you should feel it straight away - if for no other reason than that you're instrument will start to make about twice as much sound

oh happy day

[MarkRhodes]

the secret is this:

you play with the flex in the pick - pushing and pulling it through the strings - you do not hit the strings at all - you don't strike them or even 'pluck' them

This sounds like something other than what I am doing. Could you post a short clip so we can see what you mean?

[nunocpinto]

Do you really not think he's doing exactly that in those two videos I posted?

Yes he his, but that's not what i am refering to. He plays 95% of the time with is pick and that is what i am interested to know and have been learning; and what he plays' with the pick is not the same thing he does with the fingers.