Marty Grosz

[superswing]

I picked up his name from a thread somewhere else in the forum, but since I found it, I've become more and more interested in his playing. Reading some of the interviews I also like his approach to playing...almost like a breath of fresh air ....from a man in his 80s. ! I'm not quite as old as Marty, and certainly haven't lived in those Dixie-inspired times, but find the message (and the playing) really inspiring. The question is ... do you need to have altered tuning to get it?

[oldane]

The question is ... do you need to have altered tuning to get it?

Get what?

[superswing]

I suppose the question was a bit quirky in two ways: do you need altered mind-tuning (ie a different appreciation) to enjoy this style of playing - it is very different to the more modern, electric jazz guitar, and more directly, do you need to use altered tuning like Marty or Carl Kress to get a sound which is similar? Those more open chord voicings are a bit of a mystery to me and I can't hear the voicings clearly enough to work out if a conventional open voicing (drop 3 ) is close enough?

Personally I love good rhythm playing and think it is enough of a challenge for anyone, but I know I am probably in a minority.

[destinytot]

H superswing,

I'm no expert, but I've been playing jazz guitar by ear (and singing) for over thirty years and have picked up a thing or two along the way.

After hearing Marty play, I asked my friend - who's hung out and jammed with Marty several times - about Marty's tuning. He said, "You and I have been playing far too long to learn how to play that way now."

That was only ten years ago, but it seems like a lifetime ago...

Two years ago, I finally got past the obstacle/hurdle of that admonition and started teaching myself to play in Marty's style. I encourage you to do the same!

Obviously, it brings a few challenges...but it brings far more benefits.

Regarding chord voicings, they're simple: you need that tuning for those particular voicings of 'fat/full-sounding' power chords across the lower or middle strings, but not for the pretty two/three-note movements on the upper ones.

If you're serious about learning Marty's style, I'd be delighted to help by sharing what I've worked out so far.

Kind regards,
Mike

[superswing]

Hi Mike

Yes, I am most definitely interested to know more. I've since tried the tuning, but with standard gauge (12-56) strings. I didn't persevere though, so I suppose one question is whether switching between tunings is practical? I bought the "Freddie Green" rhythm book and found learning and making the 3 note voicings instinctive took a while!

So yes, please, I'd be glad of any help.

Regards

[destinytot]

Hi superswing.

I don't know the book you refer to, but reading James Chirillo on the "One Note Chord" theory (don't know whether you've come across this James Chirillo comments about the "One Note Chord" Theory ) left me in even greater awe of Freddie Green than I already had been. (In this clip of IT HAD TO BE YOU, Steve Jordan's rhythm/chordal playing exemplifies the same standards of excellence on the acoustic archtop guitar as Freddie Green - but there's only guitar, vibes and trumpet, so we can not only 'feel' but also 'hear and, to a limited extent, 'see': It Had To Be You - Steve Jordan Trio 1992 - ??????????? .)

MG tuning gives 'fatter' chords, but switching between tunings isn't an option.

When I decided to teach myself, I couldn't aford yet another instrument; in addition to owning a decent nylon-strung guitar for bossa I'd previously invested in a custom archtop with an Evans amp and also a (used) custom solid-bodied seven-string. So I took a leaf out of Ted Greene's book and started by first working out - on paper - feasible MA/MI/DIM/AUG & DOM 7th/MA6/MI6/MI7 chord voicings using Bb-F-C-G-B-D all over the neck, drawing diagrams for the fingering. I retuned my classical (!) and, although the strings were ridiculously floppy, the harmony all sounded OK, so I knew I was on to something.

Eventually I could afford another guitar, and opted for an (acoustic non-cutaway) Godin 5th Avenue (in black), being the cheapest half-decent archtop I could find.

I have my guitars set up by someone qualified and competent to do the job. They had me unstring and keep the new guitar on its stand with two computer speakers positioned and playing music through the f-holes for several hours a day and over several weeks before they took the Godin away. I had the luthier use nickel flatwound 6th, 5th and 4th strings from a spare set of electric strings for my seven string - I only use flat wounds, including nylon. He also changed the bridge, raised the action and adjusted the truss rod. The result was that the guitar was a lot louder than when I bought it.

But not loud enough - or bright enough - because of the strings I was using (out of ingrained intolerance of string noise).

For a while, I got away with using Chrome Jazz Lights with these guages; : D/1st .011, B/2nd .015, 5/3rd .022, C/4th .030, F/5th .050 and Bb/6th .065. I've since switched to Newtone Masterclass Double Wound Baritone (bronze); much more volume, and a bright ringing tone. These are my new guages:

1st: .014
2nd: .018
3rd: .026
4th: .036
5th: .054
6th: .070

So, I would say switching between tunings isn't practical at all.

Moreover, you'd need to have an instrument set up appropriately: it doesn't have to be a vintage instrument, but it needs to 'bark'.

Also, I would say that picks, picking angles and right-hand technique make a huge difference when it comes to consistently producing the desired sound.

Of course, Freddie Green-style playing techniques transfer perfectly, but MG's approach has fuller chords. In that regard, while I love the Steve Jordan clip, I adore Marty's sound

.

Let me know how I can help. I'd be happy to do whatever I can.

Best,
Mike

PS One thing I take away from the Steve Jordan clip is the place he strikes the strings - that sweet spot is a kind of Holy Grail!

[monk]

Another critical factor in getting a good rhythm sound, especially with an archtop guitar, is the way the player holds the instrument.

Grosz, Jordan and Chirillo all hold the guitar at an angle so that back of the guitar doesn't come in contact with their torsos. Pictures of big band players like Van Eps and Reuss show them holding their guitars the same way.

The archtop guitar, like violins, produce optimum volume when the back is free to vibrate sympathetically with the top. A quick test is to angle the guitar and strum the strings, then move the instrument up against the body. There will be an audible decrease in sound.

This also works to a lesser degree with steel string acoustics, gypsy jazz and classic guitars. Try it.

[destinytot]

Hello, Monk

My main reason for not doing so is neither valid nor insurmountable, so I shall follow your advice - thank you!

I think I'm going to have to look at how I sit, and practise singing and playing while sitting cross-legged. As I'm pretty tall, it takes a high chair for me to have my thighs sloping a little from the seat towards the floor. I ruled out sitting cross-legged a long time ago, but I think that was a mistake.

I've seen strolling banjo players wearing 'bum bags' strapped to their waists in order to hold their instruments at an angle, but I'd rather find an adjustable chair that's portable and presentable.

[superswing]

Lots of interesting stuff in reply...thanks to all.

I've been using a Loar acoustic archtop which is Ok for volume, although not as loud as my Selmer style gypsy jazz instruments. I do use it in my current band as it's a more suitable sound overall. I feel I've been improving my swing sound by using more 3 note voicings, more movement though inversions, etc, fewer upstrokes (compared to Gypsy jazz). The MG voicings still have an appeal and I need to give thought to using the setup Destinytot describes, perhaps on another guitar. Meanwhile, finding more examples of good swing rhythm playing will be a high priority for me.

[Eddie Lang]

Very nicely done!

The vocals reminded me a bit of one of my favorite groups, the duo Tony Marcus/Patrice Haan (a.k.a. Leftover Dreams).

• Patrice Haan & Tony Marcus | Leftover Dreams
• Leftover Dreams | We'll Take Romance

Hello, Monk

My main reason for not doing so is neither valid nor insurmountable, so I shall follow your advice - thank you!

I think I'm going to have to look at how I sit, and practise singing and playing while sitting cross-legged. As I'm pretty tall, it takes a high chair for me to have my thighs sloping a little from the seat towards the floor. I ruled out sitting cross-legged a long time ago, but I think that was a mistake.

I've seen strolling banjo players wearing 'bum bags' strapped to their waists in order to hold their instruments at an angle, but I'd rather find an adjustable chair that's portable and presentable.

I do one of two things. Sometimes I use a foot stool like classical guitarists use. Most of the times, I use a strap and the guitar sits at an angle, the lower bout wedged between my lap and my torso, very much like this pic of Wes. I can still cross my legs if I want to but it gives me more flexibility in terms of position.

[destinytot]

Hey, Richard

Thanks! Do you sing, too?

I hadn't heard of Tony Marcus/Patrice Haan, but I've just had a quick listen - they're terrific!

Best,
Mike

[Eddie Lang]

Hey, Richard

Thanks! Do you sing, too?

I hadn't heard of Tony Marcus/Patrice Haan, but I've just had a quick listen - they're terrific!

Best,
Mike

Yeah, I sing too. A female vocalist does most of the singing and I do harmonies on some songs and I sing (lead) on a few too.

We play just a handful of instrumentals, most of the stuff is vocals. Short solos too. I rarely take more than 8 or 16 bars, sometimes a 32 bars -- and that's the way I like it).

[destinytot]

Great series of talks by James Chirillo:

[destinytot]

The archtop guitar, like violins, produce optimum volume when the back is free to vibrate sympathetically with the top. A quick test is to angle the guitar and strum the strings, then move the instrument up against the body. There will be an audible decrease in sound.

Thanks again for this excellent tip; it made a huge difference last night.

[destinytot]

The archtop guitar, like violins, produce optimum volume when the back is free to vibrate sympathetically with the top. A quick test is to angle the guitar and strum the strings, then move the instrument up against the body. There will be an audible decrease in sound.

Thanks again for this excellent tip; it made a huge difference last night.

[superswing]

Thanks for the link to James Chirillo. I really like his playing and his style of instruction. In fact, his electric playing on some tracks is almost enough to make me change my mind about using electric myself.

[monk]

Thanks again for this excellent tip; it made a huge difference last night.

I'm happy to hear that it helped.
Regards,
Jerome (monk)

[destinytot]

In fact, his electric playing on some tracks is almost enough to make me change my mind about using electric myself.

Playing acoustic rhythm guitar really helps with phrasing single-note lines - finding that groove - on an electric archtop. It's changed the way I play electric (for the better).

[destinytot]

Immensely! I even improvised a couple of short chord solos (for the first time since taking up Marty Grosz's tuning) !

[destinytot]

With my new duo partner

[Eddie Lang]

I Can't Believe That You're In Love With Me

Thanks for posting. I enjoyed it.

[destinytot]

I was sent these yesterday:





<span style="font-family: Arial"><a href="https://vimeo.com/67243500" target="_blank"><font color="#0066cc">



The fat bronze strings and monk's tip (about keeping the back of the guitar free to vibrate) has helped loads - and so has the Benson Picking thread - but it wouldn't happen at all (especially in this economy) without the supportive attitude of musicians on the gig. After three-and-a-half years' preparation, I'm finally recording originals in this style (in July - on a shoestring ).




Mike

[Eddie Lang]

Nice again!

Is that a Fender Passport in the back? Yours? If so, how is is for amplifying vocals (and perhaps even guitar) in a small venue?

[superswing]

Great stuff!
By the way, I'm using a Yamaha Stagepas (similar to the Fender Passport) for amplifying my acoustic archtop with the band.

[destinytot]

Thanks- that means a lot to me. I love and admire what MG does, and on many levels.

Re. the gear, it's one of these

I bought it new online for just under over 300 euros - less than what it would have cost to send my Chromacord Podium for repair in Germany after it 'blew' about a year ago (I'm hopeful that I can get it fixed locally).

I haven't compared its weight to the Fender Passport, but i've compared the sound on several gigs (a friend has the Passport). and I would recommend this PA because it performs really well. Unlike the Passport, it comes without speaker stands. I've used it at a couple of bigger venues and outdoor events (which I don't really enjoy doing); you can use it as a monitor PA and send a line to a bigger PA. Also, my archtop semi sounds fine plugged in directly.

That being said, my preferred solution - and affordable (if price weren't an option, I'd go with BOSE) - for vocals and acoustic guitar in a small venue is condenser mics connected via XLR inputs to a small powered mixer going into one channel of an old (? '80s) Polytone Minibrute raised to ear level (sitting); a second amp channel is available for a semi, the Polytone can be mic'ed, and a line can be taken from the back of the Polytone to a second amp. No effects, just the Polytone sound (which I find warm - my other guitar amp is an Evans RE200, whose sound is beautiful but not as 'dark' as the Polytone's). But having two well-positioned speakers makes life easier when you're in unknown territory.
Best,
Mike