Why so few women players in jazz?

[NSJ]

Any explanation would have to explain why there are plenty of female classical musicians, across a wide variety of instruments.

Most reputable municipal orchestras get public money, and, consequently, have organized and principled ways of doing things, including, most importantly, a system of BLIND auditions, whereby the prospective player plays unseen/behind a curtain, so the audition is based strictly on merit.


Wynton's Lincoln Center? File Under "Old Boy Network".

We can discuss Sheryl, Mimi or Emily they are/were outstanding master musicians. But please, no Mary Halverson.

[Extrapolation]

Fumble, obviously there are differences in the genders. The way I see it, the jury is still out on whether those differences are innate or just a result of social conditioning.

The jury is not out on whether it's one or the other (it's both). There are biological differences and, since characteristics and personality ultimately arise out of biology, there are "innate" differences between men and women. There are also social constraints that are imposed on both sexes that greatly affect behavior.

[fumblefingers]

Fumble, obviously there are differences in the genders. The way I see it, the jury is still out on whether those differences are innate or just a result of social conditioning.

do you mean that brain structure might be a result of social conditioning?

[randalljazz]

This is a great topic. I've wondered this too and never gone looking for a list. Now I have no more excuses.

Thanks.

Jazz Grrls: A list of Women in Jazz on the Web

The JazzUSA Foundation Women in Jazz archive

Category:Women in jazz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[SearchForMeaning]

I know it sounds sexist, but it has to do with penises. Music is a language, after all, & so many that play the guitar are saying though their music, "See how big my penis is?" Jazz guitarists are no exception.

Did Blind Lemon Jefferson become that way because he played too much ukulele as a kid? Ahhh, it all makes sense now.

[JakeAcci]

do you mean that brain structure might be a result of social conditioning?

No. I don't mean that, because that would be a stupid thing to mean.

[JakeAcci]

The jury is not out on whether it's one or the other (it's both). There are biological differences and, since characteristics and personality ultimately arise out of biology, there are "innate" differences between men and women. There are also social constraints that are imposed on both sexes that greatly affect behavior.

At this point in my life I agree with you completely, but I keep an open mind about other possibilities.

The question is still how much is one and how much is another. Coming back to the first post a bit - are men 'naturally' more driven to be jazz guitarists than women, or is that tendency more so a result of how men and women are socialized differently? (In that specific case, my believe is that it's probably mostly the latter.)

But I think it varies with each issue. For example, I do personally believe that the cliche about men being less interested in commitment than women has biological roots...just my belief though, based on data and theory I've been exposed to. Again, I have an open mind.

[mr. beaumont]

The question is still how much is one and how much is another. Coming back to the first post a bit - are men 'naturally' more driven to be jazz guitarists than women, or is that tendency more so a result of how men and women are socialized differently? (In that specific case, my believe is that it's probably mostly the latter.)
.

It almost gets "chicken or egg" for me...

Fumble and BigDaddy had some things in their posts I found interesting...

Fumblefingers correctly (at least in my experience) states that there definitely tends to be more males in "instrumental" roles than females across the board in music (unless we're talking about CeeLo's band)

BigDaddy mentions that women seem to be much better represented in the field of Classical music...this is also true (again, just from my experience)

Which still makes me think there's something about jazz that appeals to more men's brains than women's brains....it's not exclusive

I showed my wife this thread and she said, "You like to start shit, huh? There you go being a man again "

[ESCC]

I showed my wife this thread and she said, "You like to start shit, huh? There you go being a man again "[/quote]


Yeah man, and that's the attitude that gets the jazzers on their musical journey, your wife hit the nail on the head as to why it is male dominated

[cjm]

Whether human beings evolved, or are the result of divine creation, it remains that most of the time we have existed -- we existed as hunter gatherers living as the few remaining band level hunter gatherer societies do today.

It is my sense that the division of labor and responsibilities between men and women in these band level societies may provide clues as to why men outnumber women in activities and careers like "jazz musician."

Hunting, for example, is a specialization requiring considerable knowledge of prey species behavior. This was primarily a male activity, and it required most of the men's time and energy...essential to the group's survival because it was the source of scarce proteins and fats required for women to successfully bear children and for enough children to grow to adulthood.

Women were engaged in gathering in groups rather than hunting, and in processing prey species carcasses brought back by hunting males...all of which was done while caring for infants and small children.

The man's day was spent in intense physical activity (hunting) and then rest. The men were specialists.

The women's longer day was spent in moderate (by comparison to hunting) activities, from gathering fuels to plants, nursing children, preparing hides, etc. The women were generalists.

This differentiation was essential to human survival. And I think it shaped our minds to the degree that a higher percentage of specialists today remain men, and a higher percentage of women remain generalists.

In modern societies, the majority of "careers" require specialization. That would include jazz guitar. We live longer than we used to, and women can resume careers after child-birth/child-rearing and men can switch roles with women to a greater degree than was ever possible in a pre technological world...so there are significant and increasing numbers of women working as specialists...AND I don't think there is such a HUGE difference ON AVERAGE in the brains of the two genders...but I think there is enough difference to explain why men still outnumber women in fields like jazz guitar.

It's hardwired into us, in my opinion.

[fumblefingers]

all right lads, well done then.


so, why aren't there more HOT women players in jazz?

[JakeAcci]

It almost gets "chicken or egg" for me...

Fumble and BigDaddy had some things in their posts I found interesting...

Fumblefingers correctly (at least in my experience) states that there definitely tends to be more males in "instrumental" roles than females across the board in music (unless we're talking about CeeLo's band)

BigDaddy mentions that women seem to be much better represented in the field of Classical music...this is also true (again, just from my experience)

Which still makes me think there's something about jazz that appeals to more men's brains than women's brains....it's not exclusive

I showed my wife this thread and she said, "You like to start shit, huh? There you go being a man again "

Jeff...man...what you say doesn't make any sense!

Let's just assume for discussion that these two points you brought up are true:
1. There are more male instrumentalists than female instrumentalists

2. Of all genres, the highest percentage of female participants is in the classical genre

If that's true, it says something about the way things are and it does not at all prove anything about why they are that way.

The nature/nurture points I've brought up are not to dispute the observed actions, behaviors, or tendencies in men and women - the point is about how those actions, behaviors, and tendencies get formed. The distinction is then that some of these observations may be true because of differences in men and women's brains, and they may be true because of cultural norms and how men and women are socialized differently - which they absolutely are.

So let's say there's a study that proves that on average men get involved in many more intellectual debates than women do. For discussion sake, let's assume that's completely true. The question of WHY it is true is still not answered.

It's hasty to say it's their brains and therefore innate differences between the genders. Maybe it is! But maybe it isn't - maybe it's because there has been a social trend that discourages women from debating - perhaps because women who argue or insist on a point are often "shrill" or are seen as being a "bitch." Maybe intellectualism is a socially valued skill in men, maybe men are conditioned to flaunt their intelligence while women are conditioned to carefully mask it and instead focus on their physical appearance or nurturing skills...etc etc, I could list a bunch of cultural-influence related possibilities, I hope the point is clear...

Each individual is the sum of many things such as their genetic makeup, the nature of their upbringing, the culture they were in and are in, and on and on. So when there are differences noted between men and women, I think it's hasty to say that those differences are definitely because of natural differences in brain structure between the genders when they could often just as easily be a result of socialization.

[Extrapolation]

At this point in my life I agree with you completely, but I keep an open mind about other possibilities.

The question is still how much is one and how much is another. Coming back to the first post a bit - are men 'naturally' more driven to be jazz guitarists than women, or is that tendency more so a result of how men and women are socialized differently? (In that specific case, my believe is that it's probably mostly the latter.)

But I think it varies with each issue. For example, I do personally believe that the cliche about men being less interested in commitment than women has biological roots...just my belief though, based on data and theory I've been exposed to. Again, I have an open mind.

I keep just as open a mind as well, but do you mean you're open to the possibility that personality arises out of something other than biology? Environment/culture have a massive effect on the brain, but it's not as though they affect behavior in some metaphysical way. Anyway this is beside the point.

I agree with you that women being less inclined towards jazz seems mostly a result of societal conditioning. There's enough women jazz guitarists/saxophonists/pianists that a biological reason mostly doesn't hold (interesting though I've never seen a woman trumpet player).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I keep just as open a mind as well, but do you mean you're open to the possibility that personality arises out of something other than biology? Environment/culture have a massive effect on the brain, but it's not as though they affect behavior in some metaphysical way. Anyway this is beside the point.

I agree with you that women being less inclined towards jazz seems mostly a result of societal conditioning. There's enough women jazz guitarists/saxophonists/pianists that a biological reason mostly doesn't hold (interesting though I've never seen a woman trumpet player).

I still have to counter any jazz argument with "take a look at any symphony orchestra". I see women trumpet players there.

And I just saw this video yesterday: Kurt Rosenwinkel playing with a Portugese big band (cool). Not many women in it, but one is playing trumpet!

[Extrapolation]

I still have to counter any jazz argument with "take a look at any symphony orchestra". I see women trumpet players there.

And I just saw this video yesterday: Kurt Rosenwinkel playing with a Portugese big band (cool). Not many women in it, but one is playing trumpet!

Yeah I meant jazz trumpeters, though obviously with that big band I stand corrected. Now a female trombonist I imagine would be more difficult to find.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I just feel a need to post a pic of Esperaenza Spalding.

[NSJ]

I still have to counter any jazz argument with "take a look at any symphony orchestra". I see women trumpet players there.

And I just saw this video yesterday: Kurt Rosenwinkel playing with a Portugese big band (cool). Not many women in it, but one is playing trumpet!

That's got to be Susana Santos Silva, whom I just discovered last year. I can't name another Portuguese trumpet player, so she comprises the entire Iberian brass section for me.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Without presenting better data, I don't think the jazz vs. classical argument can really be related to a good old boy's club issue. It's apples and oranges. My son likes death metal, and I don't think you can argue with the numbers of male vs. female audience members. Taylor Swift and Justin Beiber aren't playing to equally male and female audiences. They're predominately female.

Now, if you could say something firm, like "the serious modern jazz guitar audience is made up of X% female and Y% male", then you've at least got an argument to make if the percentage of players is vastly different from the percentage of serious listeners. (I don't think you could consider "serious modern jazz listeners" to be people who dine in an establishment with jazz as "background music".)

As to why more boys play death metal than girls, that's a different discussion. It's the same thing with the jazz vs. classical argument.

[bako]

I know if we rely only on common sources of information, there are many things that will never be known.
There are many talented women jazz instrumentalists playing every instrument out there.

Here's a few brass players: Trumpet--- Ingrid Jensen, Rebecca Coup Franks // Trombone---Melba Liston, Deborah Weisz

We really don't know what is possible for any individual to achieve. Women and girls deserve support and encouragement.

[mr. beaumont]

Jeff...man...what you say doesn't make any sense!

Let's just assume for discussion that these two points you brought up are true:
1. There are more male instrumentalists than female instrumentalists

2. Of all genres, the highest percentage of female participants is in the classical genre

If that's true, it says something about the way things are and it does not at all prove anything about why they are that way.

The nature/nurture points I've brought up are not to dispute the observed actions, behaviors, or tendencies in men and women - the point is about how those actions, behaviors, and tendencies get formed. The distinction is then that some of these observations may be true because of differences in men and women's brains, and they may be true because of cultural norms and how men and women are socialized differently - which they absolutely are.

So let's say there's a study that proves that on average men get involved in many more intellectual debates than women do. For discussion sake, let's assume that's completely true. The question of WHY it is true is still not answered.

It's hasty to say it's their brains and therefore innate differences between the genders. Maybe it is! But maybe it isn't - maybe it's because there has been a social trend that discourages women from debating - perhaps because women who argue or insist on a point are often "shrill" or are seen as being a "bitch." Maybe intellectualism is a socially valued skill in men, maybe men are conditioned to flaunt their intelligence while women are conditioned to carefully mask it and instead focus on their physical appearance or nurturing skills...etc etc, I could list a bunch of cultural-influence related possibilities, I hope the point is clear...

Each individual is the sum of many things such as their genetic makeup, the nature of their upbringing, the culture they were in and are in, and on and on. So when there are differences noted between men and women, I think it's hasty to say that those differences are definitely because of natural differences in brain structure between the genders when they could often just as easily be a result of socialization.

Jake, why are you under the impression that I'm intending my posts to be regarded as fact, when the truth is I'm just asking more open ended questions?

I think I've been pretty clear I'm talking about possible factors and not be all end all causes!

I'm not saying biology is the only reason...I'm suggesting it might be a plausible reason...and one that may play into some of the social factors as well.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So is it the man's obsessive nature that makes him more likely to be bitten by the jazz bug? What do our members (male and female) think? Certainly it has nothing to do with ability (If you've heard Sheryl you KNOW that ain't it!)

Again, the original, light-hearted question was about whether or not men are more obsessive and how that might have something to do with the number who play jazz.

"Why men may or may not be more obsessive" is another question.

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks matt.

I sure didn't intend this to become too "deep" of a thread.

I try to avoid deep conversation if at all possible, like most men.

[mr. beaumont]

I just feel a need to post a pic of Esperaenza Spalding.

At the risk of sounding sexist...ah, screw it...she's beautiful.

Esperanza's so good she makes me nervous. In a perfect world she'd single handedly knock out the jazz "boys club" and the "talentless pretty pop star" stereotypes by herself.

[Al_F]

Last open jam I went to there were two women instrumentalists that showed up violin & trumpet.

My $0.02 - As a guess as to why you see lots of women in classical music is because there is a 'farm' system in place. Lots of kids take piano or brass lessons, band in school. Guitar seems to be left out and most players I know including kids go through very informal processes to learn.

[ESCC]

Again, the original, light-hearted question was about whether or not men are more obsessive and how that might have something to do with the number who play jazz.

"Why men may or may not be more obsessive" is another question.

I think the many (repeated) responses to this thread may address male obsessive behavior.