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I think Ralph Towner is the true bridge between classical guitarists and jazz guitarists. if you are curious, check out Jamaican Stopover on YouTube.
Great performance!
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08-30-2010 08:05 AM
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Anyone suggest improv for recado?
Originally Posted by Stackabones
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Originally Posted by derek
that second one aint him BTW.
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My playing on Framworks modren classic guitar.
best
kris
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Ralph Towner?
Paul Meyers?
Laurindo Almeda?
John Stowell?
There's a lotta dudes who kill it on nylon string.
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His "Jazz for Classical Guitar" book and his jazz guitar "Etudes In All 24 Keys" are top notch. Will keep you busy for quite a while. Originally Posted by Herby
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I was thinking the exact same thing, including the bit about Cabin Fever...until I finally got to your post. In a forum full of guitar players no less...a little more understandable if it was just a jazz forum... Originally Posted by AleikhBaba
I started playing my classical when I am shedding about 6 months, I have found that when I go back to my Tele, I have crisper, cleaner and quicker left hand technique. The neck width is a bit of an issue though, I'll never practice before a gig with it, or I am all screwed up.
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I may have missed it, but I don't think joe pass was mentioned. He recorded some albums on classical guitars. I Remember charlie parker is very good and so is unforgettable. His playing is much more restrained in this setting.
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My latest CD "Romanza" on Whaling city Sound is almost all nylon-string, with a pretty wide variety of styles, Clips available on the Whaling City website if you're interested in a classical/flamenco style approach to jazz guitar.
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I need some advice. I just bought a used larrivee D03 and have been playing contemporary fingerstyle (?) and taking lessons with this great player over skype.
But I also play saxophone (jazz) and really want to play jazz on nylon (i think). Been listening to Doug Figueiredo (brazilian player) a lot
My question is how should I go about learning to play jazz nylon? I'm not a complete noob to jazz but I don't really understand guitar theory. Should I start with a classical teacher for technique? Or a jazz guitar teacher, but I doubt I'll be able to find a jazz nylon teacher. I'm in Westchester County and would maybe be willing to go to the NYC.
Also what are some good nylons for jazz around $500?
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My teacher took me when I only had a nylon and classical experience. I would say get good guitar lessons with lots of guitar theory thrown in...doesn't really matter what type of instrument or style. I found I needed to buy a good electric jazz box to really start playing jazz though...LOVE nylon but it has many limitations.
Sailor
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Nylon's limitations are basically in the amplification, and not inexpensively overcome, but playing jazz fingerstyle is less limited than playing with a pick. Unless you're talking about bebop, which benefits from an electric guitar, jazz can be played vey effectively on the nylon. A good classical technique is cool, but even better is flamenco, coupled with modern harmonic exploration. For $500, you'll need to get into the used market.
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Originally Posted by ronjazz
How abouta breedlove? People were recommending those in another thread.
Should I get a flamenco teacher or a jazz teacher? My guitar friend's teacher actually plays a lot of jazz on nylon supposedly but I think he charges a lot for his lessons.
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there's been lots of guys that play the same stuff they do on electric, on nylon.
only a few guys doing jazz with "classy" type technique (using just fingers on RH), of which i think Gene B is BY FAR the best to listen to.
still, i find myself wishing he was playing an arch top. but Gene is WAY dedicated. his solo guitar stuff couldn't really be done with a pick, but i still would rather hear it on an arch top. i studied classy for many years and Gene's tone is overall not what i would want to hear out of a nice classical.
it seems like an obvious task waiting to be mastered, but the fact that i have yet to hear ANYBODY do it the right way (for me) has scared me off of trying myself. i have enough trouble with a pick as it is...
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Absolutely Loooooovvveeeee the sound of jazz played on a nylon string guitar. Quite a few Brazilian jazz players are into it I've noticed. The "fat" sound of nylon strings lends itself to jazz playing IMO. I still prefer to do it on a guitar with a slimmer neck like a Godin or something but that's just my personal preference. then again I'm not into fingerstyle as much either pick or hybrid for the most part.
Wow, beautiful version of Misty Peterja TFP.Last edited by Double 07; 12-24-2011 at 04:25 AM.
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This is a thead that's sure to run & run as it brings together the worst of guitar playing prejudices under one roof, and none can be resolved adequately. First off there are Nylon string guitars and there are Nylon string guitars, a true Flamenco guitar has little tonal resemblance to even a Yamaha APX10 let alone a Godin Nylon Mutiac duet, and diminishing technique similarities as well, but folks will keep expecting some imaginary gold standard classical tone that for the most part is hooey. Electric archtop players all have different tones and it's seen to be a good thing!
Then there's the old bugbear about using a pick or thumb-pick on nylon strings (not that it bothered John McLaughlin, or Chet Atkins or Costa Lukacs in the above video).
Next, are you a single note noodler (monophonic) or you like adding the odd chord in (homophonic) or a true polyphonic explorer...? Each exerts its own technical stresses & strains.
Finally the technical difficulty of improvising freely on a nylon string guitar while maintaining clarity and volume without sounding like a mouse scratching around on a blackboard - which is all bound up with what guitar you choose.
And underpinning all of this is the simple fact that nylon strings do not sustain like steel strings - this is no bad thing and could be why players like Ralph Towner and John McLaughlin found an ease of expression and phrasing on stretched gut that is missing from tempered metal?
At the end of the day the aim is surely music? If so then the only way to go is the way that feels right, or you will be stuck being yet another mechanised learn by rote lick player craving a new written arrangement or tab to fake musical expression. Improvisation must be natural, so your guitar must feel like a musical friend not an technical enemy!!
Guitar is only a means to an end, not the end itself. And I have seen far more electric players make an easy & successful transition to classical guitar later on in their musical journey as those travelling in the opposite direction.
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It is just music. And there are a good examples of guys that have no classy technique getting good sounds playing picks on nylon. PM's "Beyond the missouri sky" and JS's "Quiet" are prime examples of great music using a sound I usually despise. Though IMO there are vastly more examples of cheesy Muzak classy guitar drenched in digital reverb and piezo ice pick picked hooha. Or just plain old bad tone (sorry Joe P, but what you played was amazing. Just wish it was with good tone).
But Im personally biased when I hear somebody try and play with their fingers and getting a poor tone. For me it's a type type of thing where I am wondering if the performer is more caught up in "an idea" rather than the "actual sound". "Hey LOOK what I'm doing!". No...HEAR what you are doing...
As anyone that has studied CG can attest, the first thing you learn is how to hit the strings. Which is totally boring and yet SO important. I feel that 95% of the jazzers I hear have skipped this step completely. If you have put in the time then you start to realize just how different picking is from classy RH. 99% of classy guitar IS the RH! And it is crucial to getting the most out of the instrument. I would say they are completely different instruments in many ways. Easily as much as a electric bass is to an upright.
That being said it has changed even my approach to using a pick because I became aware of angles, touch, and shape and their affect on tone. As a dedicated guitarist this is the minimum you can do for your sound. I spent a fortune on switching guitars (still kick myself over the super 400 I let go) and amps looking for a different pick sound.Last edited by mattymel; 12-24-2011 at 12:29 PM.
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I would far rather hear an interesting musical idea played with 'bad' tone (whatever that might be) than someone so 'guitaristacally' obsessed with their nails and pick shapes (or their guitar or amplifier or fx pedals etc) they are unable to think musically . Originally Posted by mattymel
Couldn't disagree more about Joe Pass, whether in a group or solo context his musicality always shone - and without music there can be no tone. He had his own sound, which was often more apparent live than on recordings. More important he could play music, and his technique scared the pants off the classical brigade (ask John Williams).
I admire Ornette for daring to challenge tonal preconcptions and use a plastic horn, likewise am in awe of the many blues players with taped up guitars and improvised pickups that still managed to produce a sound infinitely more profound than anything Mr or Ms Bland ever do on their expensive classical or electric guitar after years of lessons.
As you say it's only music - but that's the basic step most guitarists (of all styles) never quite grasp. And if you need to be shown how to strike a string, then choose the piano instead.
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I surprised that nobody's mentioned Jeff Linsky! He's really a mix of Classical, Latin and Jazz....
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For all the videos Ive seen of guys playing jazz on a nylon, not one has tone that I would want to hear. And yet I could find hundreds of examples of classical guys getting good sounds and playing great stuff. Maybe not improvising, but still making music and being creative.
Tone is very much a part of the listening process for me. If I cant seem to find examples that dont have it, i wont listen to it. I still have hundreds of records to choose from. Personally I would rather hear an idea played expressively WITH good tone on a sax or piano than on guitar where it sounds like someone cramming in more notes than were meant to be played with bad phrasing and no dynamic range. Same goes for hearing bad players get bad tone on a classical guitar. To me it's about as satisfying as hearing a guy play Slayer on an L5. Or maybe I'll just listen to a recording of a great classy player doing Villa Lobos. I'm sure to get everything I need minus any drawbacks. Choose the right tool for the job and then learn how to get the best tone you can. Pianist don't stop working on their sound when/if they get a Steinway.
Everything we listen to has an influence on how we end up sounding. Obviously I enjoy hearing blues guys and punks play on beaters too. But if its not lending itself the palette, its a distraction for me. Marc Ribot is a perfect example. A guy who HAS the classical technique and it comes through in a completely nonCG result and plays with ALOT of non traditional sounds that still SOUND GOOD..Last edited by mattymel; 01-02-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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That's a yes and no type of question. Some people (especially goo musicians) can look beyond 'sonic quality' and enjoy great playing - even on poor instruments or poor quality recordings. Originally Posted by H-D-A
However, that doesn't seem to be true of the general public. The average person would rather hear a great quality recoeding of a jet engine than a poor quality recording of the greatest players.
This is one of the reasons that the Rock & Roll of the late 60s and early 70s became so popular compared with Jazz and Classical music - the Rock & Rollers espoused electronics and used it to their advantage in every way. The Jazz and Classical world seemed to be in a state of denial.
Nowadays it seems that classical & Jazz musicians have finally come around to the idea of using electronics to their full advantage - which is why there's been a resurgence in popularity since around 1990.
The fact is a good musician will always sound better when the sound quality of his instrumrnt and electronic enhancements are higher quality - so will a poor musician.
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Don't make the mistake of taking Classical Guitar lessons if you want to be a proficient jazz player on nylon string. They will put you on the 20 year plan. The problem is that they emphasize tone quality without regard to rythm and the muscular development needed for higher tempo music. Originally Posted by adimi24
If you'll veiw the links below, you'll notice the rythmic excellence - anybody that is well developed rythmically has no problem with tone quality:
What I do is warm up with about 8 simple classical pieces like Bach's Bouree from Lute Suite No.1, Prelude from a Well-Tempered clavier, Little Minuet in G....there's also a collection of 32 simple pieces by Mauro Guiliani named "Le Papillon"....
After that I play about 10 'Prelude' Type pieces...Villa Lobos' prelude No.4 (the pima pattern is great for development...make up your own)...Carcassi Etude No.3, Fernando Sor Opus 6 Study 11, Tarrega's Estudio Brilliante (That's the piece Julian Bream is playing in the Link above...it's DIFFICULT!)
You'll be amazed at your finger picking capabilities with these daily warmups.
After that get Jeff Linsky's 'Finger Style Jazz Guitar Solos' (Book & DVD from Mel Bay). That'll give you a huge leap forward into fingerpicked Jazz.
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honestly, i would think that anyone that hasn't studied classical guitar on a deep level would have a REALLY difficult time playing many of those pieces convincingly. not that they couldn't learn from them, but...
wow...I forgot to mention Lenny Breau. another example of someone that has put in the time learning the instrument and using it in a completely different way. I doubt he would tell you that his classical studies were of detriment to his jazz playing and definitely not his tone.Last edited by mattymel; 01-02-2012 at 03:55 PM.
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