Jazz on a Nylon String Classical

**Bertrand tB** · 04-29-2009, 01:44 AM

This guy is truly a master in playing nylon string jazz, although he knows his way on steelstrings and archtops too. He nowaday's play's a nylon string Godin. This evening i'm meeting him for a private lesson and looking forward to it.

**gazda** · 04-29-2009, 03:28 AM

I've recently posted a short Monk on nylon, Ruby My Dear in the thread about Monk... My bedroom guitarist level of musicianship and complexity of playing aside, is it obvious from the tone that I am playing with really short nails, flesh-and-nail, with the right hand in a "proper/accepted/widespread" late XX century classical position (as opposed to Segovia's too much bend in the wrist to make knuckles parallel with strings = RSI)? Probably isn't obvious. Sounds like a Spanish guitar. But it is p 1mm, i/m/a about 0.5. There is a "bite" to my attack. I'll forever remain mystified by endless classical fingernail struggles. Flesh-and-shortish-nail gives control, articulation, nice tone and is applicable on steel strings without sacrificing anything (like breaking nails as steel is pretty nasty to longer nails). And it is even available to bedroom guitarists, let alone pros.

**wordsmith** · 04-29-2009, 05:02 AM

....that's just what I have, as short as possible. One of the reasons is the reduced chance of breakage, but as I continue to play with them, they feel just right for me. Other than a bit of care with a file to minimise their snagging on something, there's nothing else to be done.

There's no way anyone could set a correct 'standard' length..... each player is unique, both in style and their desired sound.

I read recently a few tips on nail care....a good though obvious one is to get into the habit of opening doors, cupboards etc with the non-picking hand - avoid the situations in which breakage often occurs.

**randalljazz** · 04-29-2009, 05:48 AM

fine player, wrote a unique book:

Amazon.com: Mel Bay Jazz and the Classical Guitar Theory and Applications: Ken Hatfield: Books

his website:

Ken Hatfield

plays one of his originals:

**wordsmith** · 04-29-2009, 06:31 AM

....I tried editing my post, but the facility wasn't working. I forgot to add that I listened to the Ruby piece you posted. Just to say you seem very much to be going in the right direction with your playing. Thanks for sharing it.

**randalljazz** · 04-29-2009, 06:46 AM

Guitar Player Nails

**Herby** · 04-29-2009, 07:26 AM

Count me as a Ken Hatfield fan too. I've heard him play solo and was stunned by how easily he played. He's also a very nice guy. This was in the early eighties. He sat and played for a small group of music majors at our local community college, all impromptu, carefully explaining what he was doing as he went along and taking requests for about an hour and a half. Since then I've learned he's a great composer too.

**peterk1** · 04-29-2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

Guitar Player Nails

Thanks for this link. Looks really, really good.

Hey! Someone posted some Godin SA links a while ago. Does any one know if those guitars have any significant acoustic volume at all or are they meant to be always amplified? Just curious.

**randalljazz** · 04-29-2009, 05:50 PM

amazing nylon string jazzer:

Fred Fried : 8-String Jazz Guitarist

invitation, with bass:

recado, as a sideman (he solos a 3:06):

duet with howard alden:

**derek** · 04-30-2009, 11:13 AM

Another one would be Jeff Linsky. Mostly Latin jazz, but does a variety, all on nylon.

Jeff Linsky

**rongtr** · 05-01-2009, 03:30 PM

Check this out- John McLaughlin with the Tonight Show band with a nylon-string:

**wordsmith** · 05-01-2009, 05:14 PM

......and enjoyed John's playing. Is it just me, or was the arrangement of what the band was playing rather over the top? Or perhaps just dreadful? John seemed somewhat amused at times.....I suppose he's tolerated worse in his time.
Thanks for the link...he gets a nice tone from that guitar.

**whiskywheels** · 05-04-2009, 12:24 PM

What about Jose Feliciano, does he count?

It was listening to him that first turned me on to 'jazz' guitar on a nylon strung. And all those latin players......

I still play the nylon a lot (and also rate the savarez strings highly) but after playing for 45 years I'm still learing the electric guitar......

**gremboul** · 05-04-2009, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by whiskywheels

What about Jose Feliciano, does he count?

It was listening to him that first turned me on to 'jazz' guitar on a nylon strung. And all those latin players......

I still play the nylon a lot (and also rate the savarez strings highly) but after playing for 45 years I'm still learing the electric guitar......

Jose Feliciano is legendary in every way and I agree about savarez especially the Corum/Crystal set. Perhaps we can also include Chet Atkins in the mix?

**mangotango** · 05-07-2009, 06:34 AM

Sylvain Luc, anyone? Plays a Godin, sounds great. There's a superb duo video of him with Birelli Lagrene on YouTube but I can't post the link as I'm at work and we're blocked from accessing that particular application.

**Stackabones** · 05-08-2009, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by mangotango

Sylvain Luc, anyone? Plays a Godin, sounds great. There's a superb duo video of him with Birelli Lagrene on YouTube but I can't post the link as I'm at work and we're blocked from accessing that particular application.

Yeah, Sylvain Luc came up a while ago.

Originally Posted by Stackabones

Another guy associated with gypsy jazz, but not limited to it, is Sylvain Luc. Amazing, extremely talented and creative guitarist.

**mangotango** · 05-08-2009, 04:48 AM

Yeh, thought that must have been the case, but too busy...well. lazy, let's be honest - to go back on it. Recently acquired his Trio Sud CD, and was very impressed. Nice moods all the way through.

A guy who's been running an acoustic project for which I've been doing some playing has one of those Godins - absolutely fantastic sound and I wish I could have afforded one when I was looking for an electric nylon-string; but in the end, my Yamaha Silent does the job, is very lightweight...and it matches my shirt, whichever shirt I'm wearing.

(Have I already done that gag? Never mind, it's still worth repeating...)

**randalljazz** · 05-08-2009, 05:20 AM

check out kc legend danny embry backing the marvelous karrin at montreux. he solos at 1:53.

CC323 · 05-15-2009, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by fep

Playing classical without nails, although the minority position, is legit. I think it was Sor or Tarrega that did that for part of their career.

Regarding nails though, I keep mine relatively short... just so I can barely see some nail when I look at my fingertips from the palm side of my hand; about 1/16th of an inch. You may want to have the left side of the nails slightly longer also (left side when viewing your fingers in playing position). I also use the Pepe Romero type hand position and attack on the strings. The finger plucks the string at an angle, somewhere around 60 degrees. This way the string starts at the flesh and left edge of the nail and slides along the nail and leaves at about the midpoint of the nail. This creates a rounder tone and is similar in concept to the unusual way that George Benson uses a pick. Perhaps experiment with this finger picking techinque on your electric.

Tarrega and Sor never played with nails because they used cat-gut strung 'romantic (shorter scale, thicker top, MUCH quieter instruments than modern 'classical' guitars), which is why any highly 'codified' method of technical improvement from back then is potentially of limited use IMO. I trust Odair Assad, Leo Brouwer, John Williams, and Christopher Parkening for technical development in a modern context, not weirdly notated, antiquated 'Complete technical studies'.

Take care,
Chris

**Herby** · 05-15-2009, 08:21 AM

I have no idea where I read it... it was years ago, but my understanding is that Tarrega was the first to play with nails.

**derek** · 05-15-2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

check out kc legend danny embry backing the marvelous karrin at montreux. he solos at 1:53.

I have met Danny, nice guy, great player. I have tossed around the idea of study with him. Thanks for the link.

**Herby** · 05-15-2009, 12:18 PM

I liked that Karrin Allyson video with Danny Embry a lot too. Thanks to Randall again for posting it. Keep'em comin'.

**randalljazz** · 05-15-2009, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Herby

I have no idea where I read it... it was years ago, but my understanding is that Tarrega was the first to play with nails.

tarrega played without nails. his two most illustrious pupils carried on his method.

emilio pujol wrote one of the most thorough methods, and taught many. i've had the privilege of hearing one of his students, hector garcia, a cuban born player who founded the first university guitar program in the united states. i was friends with one of hector's students for a few years, dr. alan schmitz. both play without nails.

miguel llobet had a significant concert career, and was one of the first guitarists to record.

the earliest player that i'm aware of that played with nails was dionisio aguado (1784-1849), who was friends with his countryman fernando sor (who played without nails). sor wrote a duet for the two of them. aguado learned from miguel garcia, his uncle, who may have been the "notorious" padre basilio, famed for his infinite and fiery variations on the fandango...which could certainly be considered a forerunner of flamenco playing, which is always played with nails.

**H-D-A** · 06-05-2009, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

3. what's the compromise been on the nails thing for everyone? i love nails on a nylon string, but i still do most of my playng on an electric guitar, where i DON'T want the nails sound--the soft skin on string thing is my bread and butter. sometimes i wish i could retract my nails like a cat. but that would be really weird. okay, i better drink another cup of coffee.

Lute players and (as another post said) many Spanish players didn't use nails at all. Inspired by this fact in the 80s (and after painfully snapping two nails clean off when bringing in the washing) I snipped what was left off completely (of my nails that is) and persevered. It changes the RH technique (more energy, shorted backlift etc) completely and allows access to all guitars (including my heavy wired rockabilly specials and my lute at the time) without worries of snaps, chips etc.

Slowly the flesh builds up into a harder texture (so useful playing steel string or electric as this aids the process) and the sound spectrum gradually widens. It allows easy access to doble course strings (including my nylon fretless glissentar) as one can recalibrate technique by feel (there is NO feel with nails let's be honest) and ear as to what is working and what is not. More to the point it restores a balanceed full tone instead of the clicking harpsichord like top end of nails.

The acid test came a year or so later when trying out a new (classical) guitar in a city centre shop and in strolled a fellow musician who cynically commented "Ha! I can hear you've grown your nails back..." to which I was able to hold up an appropriate amount of fleshy tipped digits...

At the end of the day its what works for you, but nails are not the only way to get a good nylon tone. Diversity rules OK?

PS: For a top nylon jazz man check out Peter Spague, lots of stuff on youtube.