Love Wes Montgomery, but indifferent towards Joe Pass

**jzucker** · 05-02-2011, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

If I say again; "deference to Wes, indifference to Joe", I could easily substitute George and Howard. Again, due respect to Howard, I think I attempted his super chops book many years back. I think i still play too many consecutive 8ths thanks to him!

The thing about Roberts is that, while he was a great player, he doesn't really bring anything new to the table IMO. If you copy Johnny Smith, Wes, Martino, Joe Pass and Benson you really have a pretty expansive breath of jazz guitar pedagogy. I don't believe Roberts adds much to the table.

Though I have to admit copping lots of Howard Roberts licks back in the day.

**Bigmagic** · 05-04-2011, 07:47 AM

If anyone is interested here is the link to a truly underrated dead guitarist. One of the best teachers IMHO. TedGreene.com - The Legacy Of Ted Greene Lives On some great stuff on the site.

**AndyV** · 05-05-2011, 09:37 PM

I would agree that Howard Roberts melodic content doesn't interest me all that much. I find him kind of glib and technically fluent without saying much, musically speaking, that resonates with me but I do admire his rhythmic flexibility in shaping a line.

**Flyin' Brian** · 05-05-2011, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by AndyV

I would agree that Howard Roberts melodic content doesn't interest me all that much. I find him kind of glib and technically fluent without saying much, musically speaking, that resonates with me but I do admire his rhythmic flexibility in shaping a line.

Even back in the pre-Capitol days?

**robertm2000** · 05-06-2011, 12:22 AM

I finally "got" Joe Pass by comparing him to, of all people, J. S. Bach. Bach was a contrapuntal genius and melodic lines were his "thing" - witness his skill in writing fugues. I found that Pass has a similar skill in winding out melodic lines. Not exactly the same thing as Bach does, obviously, but Pass has a gift for coming up with lines that make more sense than a lot of folks who tend to pile chord on chord, arpeggio on arpeggio.

As always, taste is a personal thing. I don't care for rap/hiphop, bluegrass, some gypsy jazz and heavy metal. They all seem to be "lowest common denominator" music in which skill is largely shown by how loud and fast one can go. (Check out a genre called "gangstagrass." A truly sad marriage...) If those thoughts don't arouse controversy I haven't said them right!

**63Bigsby** · 05-06-2011, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

Even back in the pre-Capitol days?

Exactly, I find him saying a $hitload of stuff on his two Verve albums ( Mr Roberts Plays Guitar & Good Pickins ). In my book, his one of the most interesting jazz guitar players of the 50's.

**princeplanet** · 05-06-2011, 02:49 AM

Pass is like Bach? , maybe, certainly great sense of counterpoint, but then, I always preferred Beethoven to Bach....

More emotion. less maths. Well for me at least....

**Flyin' Brian** · 05-06-2011, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by 63Bigsby

Exactly, I find him saying a $hitload of stuff on his two Verve albums ( Mr Roberts Plays Guitar & Good Pickins ). In my book, his one of the most interesting jazz guitar players of the 50's.

This is exactly what I meant. The Capitol records that most are familiar with were absolutely "formula" records. They were designed that way because HR wanted to introduce jazz to as many people as possible. To hear what he really does, I always recommend Mr Roberts, Pickin's and The Real Howard Roberts.

The intro to Serenata on The Real Howard Roberts is worth the price of admission alone. And on the Magic Band live records he really digs in on several songs.

But even on the Capitol sides, there are some real gems among the solos.

BTW his son Jay is no slouch either.

**63Bigsby** · 05-06-2011, 09:07 AM

^Ain't that the truth:

**the*doctor** · 05-06-2011, 10:00 AM

Check out the duo JP did with NHOP on upright bass. Fantastic stuff and the recording sounds really warm to me. This one has great tone, and NHOP is amazing.

**jzucker** · 05-06-2011, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by the*doctor

Check out the duo JP did with NHOP on upright bass. Fantastic stuff and the recording sounds really warm to me. This one has great tone, and NHOP is amazing.

I agree. However, earlier in the thread those recordings were dissed at being technical exercises with little musicality or something to that effect.

**paynow** · 05-06-2011, 10:34 AM

**mr. beaumont** · 05-06-2011, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I agree. However, earlier in the thread those recordings were dissed at being technical exercises with little musicality or something to that effect.

Well now, that's not what was said, Jack. I don't know about the others, but I know I'm one of the the ones who doesn't care for those recordings, and I stand by it--not Joe's best work, by a long shot.

There's a real sense of competition I hear on a record like "Chops." In a live environment, that can be riveting...on record, tiring after a few tracks. I also think the recorded tone on these records like "Chops" and "Eximous" leaves a lot to be desired--very dry and "in your face."

I do not feel that the records Joe made with NHOP are indicative of the taste he was capable of playing with. Just my opinion.

**Jazzpunk** · 05-06-2011, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

There's a real sense of competition I hear on a record like "Chops." In a live environment, that can be riveting...on record, tiring after a few tracks. I also think the recorded tone on these records like "Chops" and "Eximous" leaves a lot to be desired--very dry and "in your face."

It's funny how we can all hear the same recordings and have completely different reactions. I don't hear the 'competition' that you're referring to and I actually dig the 'in your face' sound of the record. 'Different strokes' as they say.

Per the original post:

After reading through this thread and many others in which people don't like so and so compared to so and so, I feel really lucky to enjoy such a wide variety of players and styles. I can't imagine how boring life would be if I only 'got' a handful of players!

I think I'll go put on a Wes/Pass mix in iTunes and enjoy the mastery of both.

**jzucker** · 05-06-2011, 03:12 PM

by the way, ran 3 miles today while listening to Joe Pass / Herb Ellis "Two for the Road". You can definitely hear the dryness of the polytone amps on the later pass/ellis recordings. Joe sounded much warmer in the earlier days going through a tube amp. Your tone definitely effects the way you play too. My guess is that the dry tone contributed to the way Joe was playing on the later recordings. Also, at that point in his career he was not practicing anymore. He told me that as he got older, he preferred to just relax with a glass of wine as opposed to really doing hard practicing. He did his hard work in his 20s and 30s I guess. He's entitled.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-06-2011, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

It's funny how we can all hear the same recordings and have completely different reactions. I don't hear the 'competition' that you're referring to and I actually dig the 'in your face' sound of the record. 'Different strokes' as they say.

Indeed...hey, at the end of the day, as long as we keep an open mind, we like what we like and that's cool.

Originally Posted by jzucker

He told me that as he got older, he preferred to just relax with a glass of wine as opposed to really doing hard practicing. He did his hard work in his 20s and 30s I guess. He's entitled.

Ya think?

I hope to play as good as Joe when he wasn't practicing someday...

**abdke99** · 05-06-2011, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

another great one is intercontinental

Started to play jazz guitar because of that, one word .... beautifull

**Strickland** · 06-08-2011, 12:32 PM

Hey guys, this is my first post on the forum, but I thought I'd chime in. Honestly Wes Montgomery bored me for some time, the sound of octaves just wasn't that enjoyable to me, and Joe Pass tended to put me to sleep. At the same time I couldn't get enough Barney Kessel, I was tracking down every album I could find. But after playing jazz for a few years and absorbing myself in many other players, I've recently come back to Wes and Pass, and now find them both quite moving. It's like wine. When you taste wine for the first time, it's awful, but as you try more and more it becomes something you crave, and a variety that may have turned you off at one time might become appealing when you come back to it. But then again if beer is your thing, then it might be pointless. I can apply the same rule to women, but I won't go there. I guess we like what we like for various reasons. I was drawn to Jim Hall because I'm balding and can't play that fast, but then it turned out the guy could really play.