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i have seen pass play live in a small club..yes he is a great player..but..his playing -to me- is not what i would call "tasty"...benson plays tasty..larry carlton plays tasty..they are all super tech players..i prefer tasty melodic runs and licks that bring new life into familiar progressions rather than flash over scales, arps etc...
i study alot of ted greene material..not to sound/play like ted..but to use his approach in my own playing that is blues/fusion based..and over simple or complex chord patterns using some of his harmonic and melodic ideas are just "tasty...
play well
wolf
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04-25-2011 03:18 PM
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Just to state the obvious: none of us are born liking a particular type of music, there is no gene that determines "likes Joe Pass."
All music is an acquired taste.
I think John Cage was trying to express a similar sentiment when he said (paraphrasing) "If you don't listen to it, it's noise. If you listen carefully, it's music."
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And I saw Joe in a club and it was a musically life altering experience for me. I definitely agree that Benson and LC are tasty players, but I've heard a lot of tasty in Joe too.
Originally Posted by wolflen
Listen to "Joy Spring" if you haven't. Such a great record.
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Yeah, if we could keep cool heads it might direct people to hear some things they had previously not considered. Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek
I'll start with another JP record I like that hasn't been mentioned (but Joy Spring, the duos with Ella, and I'm telling y'all, this one with JJ Johnson are really good)
EXCELLENT: Joe and Zoot Sims, Blues For Two.
Excellent record! (boy, does it seem that I like Joe in a duo?)
ALSO EXTREMELY GOOD: Joe with Ray Brown and Andre Previn "After Hours"
Just good stuff--if you like a drumless piano trio, you'll love this.
NOT SO GOOD: Joe and the Viking (Niels Henning Orsted Pederson) "Chops"
Title says it all...overplaying is abound, by both of 'em. (hmmm, maybe all the duos aren't sooo good)
BAD: Eximous
Terrible "straight into the board" tone, more overplaying (NHOP, as I've said before, brought out the worst in Joe IMHO)
Oh, and a wildcard--Joe as a sideman on Johnny Griffin's "Grab This"
Joe's not the headliner here so his solo spots are breif, but it's cool to hear him get down with an organ combo.
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I like "Chops" though I do think there is some overplaying. The one I like least is "Whitestone", which he was actually selling in the club the night I saw him; it had just been released. He took a break and the MC got on the mic and said "Please buy Joe's album, as he needs plane fare back to LA." Broke the place up. I bought one and had it autographed, but I don't love it. It's vinyl which shows you how ancient I am.
"Live At Donte's" is another great recording.
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His recordings of both are what made me learn them, which says a lot when you consider the two giants who wrote and recorded them originally. Originally Posted by jzucker
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another great one is intercontinental
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Have that on vinyl too; you just reminded me I have to get it on CD since it's warped. And even warped, it sounds 1000x better than so many recordings which call themselves "guitar". Originally Posted by jzucker
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i think it's only available through japanese import unless you...ummm...nevermind.
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here's an excerpt on a blues from intercontinental. Epitome of taste, feel and note choice IMO....
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Intercontinental is also one of my favorite J.P. releases.
wiz
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Tasty, feel is good and Joe's a monster. I guess for me that when it comes to a blues I maybe want my head ripped off like these. Originally Posted by jzucker
Chacon a son gout
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Interesting thread, but I don't get this statement. Is it necessary to micro-analyse someone's solo to appreciate it? Originally Posted by jzucker
Joe Pass was a landmark contributor to jazz guitar. Wes' contribution was equally unique. Nobody was doing what JP and Wes were doing at that time. Joe basically wrote the book on virtuoso jazz guitar. We all know Wes' contribution. IMO, this is the perspective that should be taken when looking at these players.
Joe Pass' Appasionado is one of my all time favorites as is his CD Unforgettable. Not from an analytical point of view, but from a pure listener's perspective.
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Dang! That CD is almost $30 on Amazon, and doesn't pop at all on iTunes. Is there a more affordable reissue or a two-fer or something? Originally Posted by jzucker
Later: Never mind. Found one on eBay for $11. Woo hoo!Last edited by Flat; 04-25-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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I think it's fine not to like Joe Pass' playing that much.
I also think you're missing out if you don't check some of his stuff out.
His books alone are filled with great lines and chord solos on standard progressions,
and some of the recordings are good examples of hardbop and bebop guitar.
But I don't see why you have to love his playing in order to check that out.
Jens
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04-25-2011, 05:01 PM #41Baltar Hornbeek Guest. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
I agree. It's typical of many virtuosi to overlook substance and emotion in favor of raw technical prowess.
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My teacher and Joe were very close friends, and a few years after Joe died, he wrote a glowing Personal tribute to Joe in Just Jazz Guitar magazine. I shall excerpt two small passages--
1. "It wasn't until the last year of Joe's life that he mentioned to me that he had always taken his talent for granted and he now realized that he had been given a special gift. *He began to truly understand and appreciate what a wonderful gift it was and how many people he gave joy to. *That statement made me very happy because he finally realized that he had been blessed and he felt that the good Lord had bestowed a unique talent on him. *In the thirty five years that I had known Joe he never flaunted his talent or ability. *It was the only time that I ever heard him mention that he had *a special talent".
2. "As guitar players we all owe Joe Pass an un-repayable debt. *He showed us that the guitar's harmonic and contrapuntal possibilities are unlimited. *More importantly, he gave us all inspiration to reach beyond our limitations *because he showed us that it was possible to use the guitar in a unique way. *This gentle giant has left his mark and will be an inspiration for thousands of future players. *He opened the door and has shown us that there is another way to play this wonderful instrument. *"
When I think of the straw man argument that someone can play jazz so well and leave PLAYERS (not listeners) so cold that they can't learn from him (the so called "unfeeling virtuoso " strawman), the loss is for the player.
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Yeah, that's a great record. Tasty, melodic, relaxed but never dull. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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watching Joe play live and up close was always a treat whether you wanted to listen to his records or not.
he was a jazz guitar giant and should be thought of that way. he did things that i dont believe have been duplicated, although many have followed in his footsteps and done well.
its probably also true that the style he played in is a bit dated by now. but then how old and dusty do Charlie and Django sound? or for that matter Segovia, when compared to his successors? Tal? Johnny Smith? i could go on and on.
an aspiring jazz guitarist can learn a hell of a lot from Joe Pass even if they dont want to become his clone.
when he was enjoying his post '75 success and accolades etc, he was asked by an interviewer who he thought was the most influential modern jazz guitarist or words to that effect. he quickly and humbly responded "Wes Montgomery". Joe was no dummy.Last edited by fumblefingers; 04-25-2011 at 08:43 PM.
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I agree with your posting except for one point. Bird's playing is still fresh. If someone came out playing that that *TODAY* they would be a star. The only thing dusty about Bird's recordings is the technology. The actual music is still a "10". Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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What really sounds dusty on the Charlie (assuming you mean Christian) recordings is Benny's playing. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
sounds kind of square, don't it? especially compared to all the super hip jazz clarinetists that came along after him.
oh wait, there aren't any super hip jazz clarinetists. i wonder how different they would sound.
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I think the main point I was trying to make was, there is no one way.
There must be great guitar players on the planet that would be able to play jazz if they already weren't that have never heard of Joe Pass.Guys that don't read as well.
I'm not trying to give advice on how to learn.
To answer the question about Bird and Coltrane etc my answer would be "I don't know". I don't see it as bad or good.
Learn all you want but if that's all you do ....?
lots of guys can play lots of stuff but who cares.What matters to me isn't really what they're playing but how it sounds and how it makes me feel.
What do I know though right? I love Jimi Hendrix more so than lots of "jazz" players.I just like what I like. If you don't like a certain player I don't see the point in listening to them (not to say you couldn't learn from them).
I don't buy into the whole "you just don't get it yet" mentality. Maybe it's the other way around have you looked into that? Often times I find it is.Just life in general.
I do however realize that this is just my point of view. I never clam to be right or wrong.
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Eddie Daniels, Don Byron and Paquito D’Rivera are pretty good. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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04-25-2011, 10:01 PM #50Baltar Hornbeek GuestZuck buddy, pal, now that's not arguing logically. Perhaps you're getting to emotional involved here... Originally Posted by jzucker
I guess it came out in Howard Roberts', Pat Martino's, Bird's, Miles' and Trane's playing too?
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