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surely has to be the guy who taught this little fella how to play :
Yeah, I know some of you have already seen this, but I feel compelled to bring this back up to discuss this: With all the institutions, books, methods, web sites, teachers and forums etc that exist, how is it there can exist a method of teaching a kid to be this good- that quickly- that the rest of us don't know about?
I don't know about you, but after watching a half dozen of young Andreas's youtubes, I feel convinced I have wasted thousands of hours practicing what must be the wrong things. If there's anyone else that got this good after only a few years, can you please let the rest of us know how?
I'm not sure I can accept that prodigies only can achieve this. To be born with perfect pitch and a great memory surely helps, but I think it's possible for people with average talent to be great players with the right approach along with the will to practice. Thoughts anyone?
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11-12-2010 10:45 AM
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I agree, but remeber minimum 60% is what You have to give from you.. so when I watch Andreas I think how many sacrefices did he make to come so far
Originally Posted by princeplanet
Last edited by drobniuch; 11-12-2010 at 10:53 AM.
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It may not be politically correct to say this, but I actually don't agree that its possible for people with average talent to be great players with the right approach. To be as good as young Andreas requires, as well as the right kind of guidance, a huge amount of natural aptitude and talent.
The will to practise is certainly helpful to make progress, but many times I've seen learners leave lessons with the same information as each other, who practise the same amount, yet they don't all achieve the same results. Like it or not, we are not all created equal, and we just have to live with that fact.
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So true. I'm still looking for what I'm really good at, besides picking rib bones clean!
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Its just a god given talent!
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Aw shucks Originally Posted by jazzuki
, you just gotta use your bottom front teeth...
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Not sure. I was told I had higher than average aptitude as a teenager, achieved 8th grade classical guitar after 2 years playing. But there was a proven method with no distractions, "just stick to the program son..." It got results. Gifted ear? I was OK in that department, transcribed pretty much anything I wanted to without too much problem, including difficult G Benson solos. Fast forward many years later to an ongoing regimen of scales/modes/arpeggios/sequences/patterns/licks/substitutions/drills etc in all positions and all keys, tempos, note divisions and directions...... only to realize you can overlearn this stuff.
Just wish I had a teacher like Andreas's. I'm certain I would not have picked things up as quickly as he was able to, but even if it took 3 or 4 times longer, I'd be happy. I wonder if Jimmy Bruno could teach a gifted kid as quickly as Andreas?
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Ha! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Aw shucks, you just gotta use your bottom front teeth...
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It'd be interesting to know how much time in those few years this kid has put in. Originally Posted by princeplanet
My guess is more in one day than most of us can fit in a week.
Talent = aptitude+drive+time put in. He's still human, folks.
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ugg boots you say, ok I'll give it a try, why not, I've tried almost everything else....
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It's like practicing. You can put in the hours and never be as fast as Tal. Same with the Uggs. I don't think you'll ever look like this: Originally Posted by princeplanet
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There's only one kind of shoe for playing jazz - Jazz Shoes! Originally Posted by princeplanet
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check out the jugs on those uggs.....
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John Jeremy's 1992 documentary Django Legacy features 10 year old Jimmy Rosenberg masterfully playing a guitar that's almost as big as he is.
The Suzuki Methods for teaching music produce very young, highly capable players with regularity.
In both cases, the children begin playing at an early age, they are immersed in the music they are learning on a daily basis by listening to recordings and they are supported and encouraged by the adults in their lives.
The common link is rote learning. The gypsies teach Django's solos a note at time, building phrases until the child can execute an entire solo, never moving on until the solo is mastered. The same with a Suzuki student learning to play classical pieces.
That this young man shows no signs of concentration on his face indicates to me that he is playing memorized solos. I've seen more than one 12 year old guitar student who could do the same thing with Stevie Ray Vaughn solos.
As someone mentioned in another thread, there is mounting evidence that quality time spent engaged in an activity trumps talent. Some names that spring to mind are the aforementioned Jimmy Rosenberg, Martin Taylor, Clint Strong and Tiger Woods.
I have stated in other posts that the early jazz players learned to play by assimilating and imitating the solos of the players who preceded them. I think this video speaks volumes in support of learning and memorizing solos to learn the language of jazz (or any other style).
Regards,
monk
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Originally Posted by monk
But is he playing a totally non improvised solo? If so, then do you see this as a bad thing with respect to the development of improv skills, or merely a more effective way to expose oneself to the overall picture. ie, if you play enough perfect memorized solos, eventually will you start to conceive your own ideas and have the skills to execute them?....
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There was a video on the web of a young (16 years old?) Jimmy Bruno playing jazz guitar. Originally Posted by princeplanet
He was fantastic even then. The video used to be on Jimmy's website.
I'd think Jimmy Bruno could teach a kid to play though.
Regarding improvised solos, the great Johnny Smith said once in an interview that most if not all of his solos on his recordings were pre-arranged. NOT IMPROVISED.
"princeplanet
if you play enough perfect memorized solos, eventually will you start to conceive your own ideas and have the skills to execute them?"
Think about the process of transcribing solos. When we transcribe and learn the solo are we not memorizing a solo by rote? So I think the memorization of solos is worthwhile. The understanding can come later. First we must play.Last edited by Drumbler; 11-12-2010 at 02:22 PM.
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Probably why Johnny Smith never thought himself to be a Jazz artist....
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Music is a language just like English, Spanish, French, Japanese or German. All spoken languages have words, spelling, grammar, sentences, pronunciation. When you have a conversation with someone you aren't making up the words as you speak. You are responding "instantly" by drawing upon the reservoir of words in your vocabulary. Improvising music works the same way. Improvisation is the spontaneous reorganization of your musical vocabulary. In other words, the rearrangement of something that already exists.
When we speak, we generally do so intuitively and it seems to be an automatic process. However, if you consider how babies learn to speak, it is neither intuitve nor automatic. Language is learned by imitation. We repeat the words and phrases we hear our parents speak. Upon entering school, language is then further developed through spelling, grammar and the enlargement of the vocabulary.
Django Reinhardt, Wes Montgomery, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Christian, Charle Parker and other great improvisers did not drop out of the sky fully formed. Each one developed his craft by listening to and learning from the people who came before them. No artist develops in a vacuum.
Think of copying solos and learning licks and phrases as acquiring vocabulary. Don't just learn a lick. Disassemble it, reassemble it , play it backward, analyse it to see why it sounds good, see if it will work over other chords. In other words, do the same thing with music that you've done with spoken language your entire life.
Remember, every great guitarist started out copying someone else. That's how they acquired their basic vocabulary. They became themselves by using their own minds to develop what they learned.
As Howard Roberts was fond of pointing out, "If you steal from one person, that's plagiarism. If you steal from a lot of people, that's research."
Regards,
monk
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Is this a word for word copy of one of your earlier posts? Originally Posted by monk
Sorry, couldn't help noticing the irony..
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Yes, that's a post that I made before. I used it to reinforce my previous post. No irony involved.
from Mirriam-Webster Dictionary
IRONY
1: the use of words to express something other than, and especially the opposite, of the literal meaning
Last edited by monk; 11-12-2010 at 02:55 PM.
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Ha! I get it ... You (monk) have inserted a prepared response into a free-form discussion on improvisation. That's beautiful!
This is generally a good analogy; but one could add, "And some people innately are better extemporaneous public speakers than others."Music is a language just like English, Spanish, French, Japanese or German. All spoken languages have words, spelling, grammar, sentences, pronunciation. When you have a conversation with someone you aren't making up the words as you speak. You are responding "instantly" by drawing upon the reservoir of words in your vocabulary
I would recast mr. beaumont's equation:
Achievement = x(internal factors) + y(external factors)
(where x + y = 1)
Internal factors include physiology (nervous system, motor skills), aptitude, gifts (like perfect pitch), personal motivation and drive, etc.
External factors include exposure/access to information and resources (i.e. recordings, videos, instruments, instructors) as well as the form of the instruction itself. Also, time allotted/available for study, etc.
We could argue about the proportions, but I assert that there's some measure of both internal and external factors present for any artist, athlete, or phenom that we name.
A person might become quite competent and capable (a "professional," even) without some of the desired internal factors; but, can they reach the pinnacle?
There's probably a missing z-factor to the equation. After all, we're not just talking about achievement. We're talking about the heights of achievement.
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Actually, M-ster, I copied and pasted a previous post I made on the analogy of spoken language to improvisation. It was the fastest way to reinforce my earlier point. Originally Posted by M-ster
I'm not sure that the OP was referring to "the pinnacle of acheivement" as much he was was inquiring about the quickest way to acquire competency as a soloist.
Your reference to extemporaneous public speaking is a good one. I have a 2 year old grandniece who is an excellent public speaker but her content needs beefing up.
As has been stated time and time again, one becomes good at what one practices. If you correctly practice scales for 8 hours a day year in and year out, you will become very good at playing scales. On the other hand, learning and practicing solos and learning to use pieces of those solos in other songs, will make you better at that.
As you pointed out, there are other factors involved. I think curiosity (what happens if I play the Bb phrase from this song over the Bb in that song?) and the will to analyze (why did this person play a Gm7 over C7?) are important.
Physical makeup is another factor. All of us aren't equipped to become Olympic athletes nor are all of us destined to become world class guitarists but I do believe that the points I've covered are the best way to fluency on the instrument.
Will Andreas Varady become a world class jazz guitarist? It's too soon to say. He has chops, we'll have to wait to see if he has imagination.
Regards, monk
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He fooled a lot of people! Originally Posted by princeplanet
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"The gypsies teach Django's solos a note at time, building phrases until the child can execute an entire solo, never moving on until the solo is mastered."
Really? do you know this for a fact or are you speculating?
"That this young man shows no signs of concentration on his face indicates to me that he is playing memorized solos."
I've heard him several times, and he improvises as much as any jazz musician improvises, and he always has that same facial expression - oddly enough I see that expression more as a sign that he's totally involved in his music.....I don't think it's possible to really tell though that a facial expression can be used to deduce that someone is playing a memorised solo.....Last edited by reventlov; 11-12-2010 at 06:41 PM.
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Read Michael Dregni's books about Gypsy Jazz--it's the musical equivalent of oral history. Not just Django's solos, but everything is taught from copying someone else who's already "got it." About as close to learning language as you get. Originally Posted by reventlov
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