The best jazz guitar teacher in history.....

**reventlov** · 11-12-2010, 07:12 PM

Fascinating stuff - I've never come across Dregni's books - ty for the info and the fast response Mr B

**princeplanet** · 11-12-2010, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by monk

On the other hand, learning and practicing solos and learning to use pieces of those solos in other songs, will make you better at that.

As you pointed out, there are other factors involved. I think curiosity (what happens if I play the Bb phrase from this song over the Bb in that song?) and the will to analyze (why did this person play a Gm7 over C7?) are important.

This is, perhaps, what can make the greatest difference to one's fluency. But it is surely a skill that can be taught. If Andreas possesses this skill as I suspect he does, then the way he was taught it is surely superior to the ways most of us know.

Maybe we'll never know, maybe it's a jealously guarded gypsy secret...

**mr. beaumont** · 11-12-2010, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

This is, perhaps, what can make the greatest difference to one's fluency. But it is surely a skill that can be taught. If Andreas possesses this skill as I suspect he does, then the way he was taught it is surely superior to the ways most of us know.

Maybe we'll never know, maybe it's a jealously guarded gypsy secret...

I don't think there's much of a secret to hours and hours of repetition and a smack upside the head for mistakes. How did Joe Pass learn?

**princeplanet** · 11-12-2010, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I don't think there's much of a secret to hours and hours of repetition and a smack upside the head for mistakes. How did Joe Pass learn?

I thought it was the smack upside the arm...

sorry....

**docbop** · 11-12-2010, 11:43 PM

To the original question I would say Howard Roberts. Not only a guitar legend, but spent a lot of time studying how we learn and how to apply that to teaching guitar. The original GIT was a great school.

**princeplanet** · 11-13-2010, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

To the original question I would say Howard Roberts. Not only a guitar legend, but spent a lot of time studying how we learn and how to apply that to teaching guitar. The original GIT was a great school.

Yes, but could Howard Roberts, or anyone at GIT take an 8 year old kid and turn him into a Jazz guitar monster by the age of 12?

**docbop** · 11-13-2010, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Yes, but could Howard Roberts, or anyone at GIT take an 8 year old kid and turn him into a Jazz guitar monster by the age of 12?

People like that are born not fabricated. Actually Lee Ritenour was about that age when he was taking lessons from Howard Roberts.

**monk** · 11-13-2010, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by reventlov

"The gypsies teach Django's solos a note at time, building phrases until the child can execute an entire solo, never moving on until the solo is mastered."

Really? do you know this for a fact or are you speculating?

"That this young man shows no signs of concentration on his face indicates to me that he is playing memorized solos."

I've heard him several times, and he improvises as much as any jazz musician improvises, and he always has that same facial expression - oddly enough I see that expression more as a sign that he's totally involved in his music.....I don't think it's possible to really tell though that a facial expression can be used to deduce that someone is playing a memorised solo.....

No speculation. That's a fact. As Mr. B pointed out, Michael Dregni addresses this in his first book. Stochelo Rosenberg has spoken about it in interviews and I, with the help of an interpreter, discussed it with Romane.

Most of the improvisors I've seen over the past 40 years exhibited some animation in their facial expressions when playing, not the deadpan look this young man has. However, it is just my opinion.

Regards,
monk

**princeplanet** · 11-13-2010, 01:28 AM

So is there anywhere in Dregni's book that describes how one is taught to improvise?

**monk** · 11-13-2010, 01:50 AM

PP.
With all due respect, haven't we had this conversation before?
Regards,
monk

**princeplanet** · 11-13-2010, 02:04 AM

Same shit, different bucket.... still would like to know how folks quickly get beyond merely learning solos by rote, then onto improvising masterpieces based on this learning. In the past I recall you gave good advice about the importance of learning other people's solos, but it seems to take me a long time to incorporate learned phrases into my own "language". Of all the things that get discussed on forums such as these, I see very little practical advice pertaining to this specific question. I guess it's this very question that intrigues me the most, and it probably won't be the last time I bring it up, so apologies in advance.

Sorry if I sound impatient, but, life is short, for us all I'm sure

....

**monk** · 11-13-2010, 02:25 AM

PP,
One possible option would be to access one tune as played by 5 or 6 different guitarists (or horn players) and listen to them solo on the tune.

My preference would be a standard tune from the Great American Songbook. Something simple such as Autumn Leaves or All of Me or even better, I Got Rhythm or a specific blues tune; that's my suggestion, the choice of song is yours.

Then listen, learn and compare. Then construct solos from what you learn. First chord play phrase from player A, second chord the phrase from player B and so on. Five or six players soloing on a 32 bar song will give you lots of choices.

If Player A's phrase on the first chord doesn't move smoothly into Player B's phrase on the second chord , change it so that it does. Continue from chord to chord until you have gone through all the players then go back to Player A and continue until you have filled in 32 bars.

Regards,
monk

**princeplanet** · 11-13-2010, 02:41 AM

Am in the process of doing this very thing on Cherokee, listening to Tal's, Oberg's, even this kid Varady! along with, of course, the 3 or 4 versions from the Bird himself. It's illuminating, to be sure, but merely stitching together other people's phrases doesn't really make me feel like I'm truly improvising, y'know? I'm thinking to break down the phrases, re-arrange them, start them on different beats, alter notes to suit various chords etc, but along with it all, I wanna use my learned "patterns" for various chords as a kind of glue (ha! there's my first album title, "Kind of Glue"!).

I just wish some old gypsy would sit me down for 4 hours a day and say "Play this and only this until I say so, and if you don't do it well, I will slap you!"

**Drumbler** · 11-13-2010, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I don't think there's much of a secret to hours and hours of repetition and a smack upside the head for mistakes. How did Joe Pass learn?

According to Joe Pass, his father was a stern taskmaster.

I guess it kind of messed Joe up a bit but made him great at guitar.

Behind every child prodigy is a frustrated parent driving them to perfection and neurosis. Kind of takes the fun out of it for the kid. The Rosenberg kid became a junkie as did Joe Pass. Look at Lindsey Lohan, Michael Jackson, Buddy Rich, Stan Getz, etc. All a bit crazy. Too much pressure.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-13-2010, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

According to Joe Pass, his father was a stern taskmaster.

I was asking rhetorically...stern taskmaster is putting it mildly!

I guess the next question really is, are we sure that kid is improvising everything? You can get to a very high level of recall and motor-skill fluency as a child--sometimes greater than that of an adult (ever get your butt whooped by a 10 year old at a video game?)

**ronjazz** · 11-14-2010, 01:49 AM

Young Julian Lage seems to be coping quite well, and making some very good music as well.

Mozart happens.

**woyvel** · 11-14-2010, 10:33 AM

2 words to explain the kid: Wes reincarnated.

**musicalbodger** · 11-14-2010, 02:29 PM

I think that only Drumbler and Mr B have, so far, come close to the cause of the phenomenon — PARENTS & UPBRINGING.

Re. the learning of the language, in the early part of the book, Ian Carr's biography of Miles explains the process brilliantly in regard to Miles' development.

Back to the young whippersnapper with the blank expression. Technically he's great but does anyone here think he's actually saying something with what he's playing. To my ear, all I'm hearing is regurgitated, robotically executed licks. Lego licks, if you like. It's way too cold. As I said in another thread on this guy, jazz is about self expression and telling a/your story. What, at the age of 12 has this kid got to say and can any of you hear it?

Haven't the time to go into this deeper, but, basically PP, I think your only answer is reincarnation using pre-chosen parents. Try to find some who are both musical and who, by their actions and training of you in the first 3 years, develop in you not only an innate musical sense but also a hunger and need to do it.

Doubt if you'd be any happier though, dissatisfaction with life is part of the human condition I fear.

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I thought it was the smack upside the arm...

sorry....

Very droll!

Mozart happens.

But only with an upbringing which enabled him to happen.

PP, the problem is that all of us are having to overcome all the restrictions, habits, rules, emotional insecurities, personality quirks, etc., that our parents instilled into us, conciously and unconciously, when we were malleable little runts unable to speak but with brains designed for learning. By the time you hit 9, you're personality and brain, the way you learn, the way you think, are already formed. After that, if you're not happy with what you've got, it's tough to change. You have to live with what you've got and make the most of it. It's possible to retrain the way you think and feel, but it's a tough, long process as you're attempting to remould some very deep seated personality traits.

**paynow** · 11-14-2010, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Back to the young whippersnapper with the blank expression. Technically he's great but does anyone here think he's actually saying something with what he's playing. To my ear, all I'm hearing is regurgitated, robotically executed licks. Lego licks, if you like. It's way too cold. As I said in another thread on this guy, jazz is about self expression and telling a/your story. What, at the age of 12 has this kid got to say and can any of you hear it?

Thank you. I was having a hard time putting into words what I felt when watching this because while I think it's great that this kid is playing jazz I really am not hearing anything inspiring. I admit that's a bit harsh; he's a young fellow and I could in no way play like that at age 12 (I started on clarinet actually, and didn't pick up the guitar until 17) and that's having grown up in a family with a jazz musician who was also a music teacher that ran the program for a very large school system. Point being: I had LOADS of support and encouragement, some of the best teachers, and I wasn't blowing lines like that at age 12.

While the kid isn't breaking new ground here I believe that will come with time and I also think that certain people are born being able to play that way and others, no matter how much they practice, are not going to be able to play that way even if they live to 100. If he's playing by rote, so what? That rote playing will teach him to do his own thing one day.

**Bigmagic** · 05-04-2011, 07:19 AM

I think Ted Greene and Howard Roberts were both great teachers. Does this kid have perfect pitch? Or a photographic memory?

**princeplanet** · 05-04-2011, 08:12 AM

probably both, and a great teacher!

**franco6719** · 05-04-2011, 09:11 AM

To paraphrase a rather musically successful friend of mine, do you know what that kid (and all of these other people on Youtube that might bother you) can't do? He can't be YOU and therefore he can't sound like you. That is all.

**guitarplayer007** · 05-04-2011, 09:21 AM

Don't even watch this kid, it will make you crazy...lol Some people just have natural ability, it comes easy for them. Like when i was a kid playing guitar, i had a friend who was playing less yrs then me, but could figure every song note for note off the record. I could never come close or even hear the stuff he was figuring out....go figure