Brick Wall

[Skip Ellis]

I've become quite enamored of the more modern styles of fingerstyle acoustic guitar after playing the alternating bass Chet Atkins/Merle Travis style for 50 years where most everything is played out of a chord and, if you know the chords, you can cobble together a pretty good likeness of a tune - it's more a of a style thing - once you get the thumb down, you're off and running. However, it seems that most of the tunes I've been listening to (Celtic/UK folk, etc) are played mostly in DADGAD and Orkney tunings (Tony McManus/Stephen Wake.....et al) and, granted, they sound great in those tunings. My problem is that I've never been tied to someone else's arrangements of anything unless it's a theater production or a reading gig. In most of my playing in bands over the years, I could improvise most tunes and play whatever I wanted and nobody knew the difference as long as I stayed true to the song style and played any necessary 'hooks' to make the song sound authentic. With the altered tuning stuff, though, when I try to read the notes, they're in the wrong places because of the tuning and it's totally foreign to me to learn someone's arrangement by rote from the TAB (not a TAB fan at all - I've been reading notes since I was 9 years old and I'm 78 now). I think it's a little late in life for me to try to learn another tuning to the point that I can improvise in it and play what's in my head. Not sure I explained this very well, but, hopefully, someone will get the idea and offer me some kind of suggestions on a way around this problem. I've got some some great stuff from Doug Young, Tony McManus, and Stephen Wake that I'd really like to learn. I'm open to ideas.

[FourOnSix]

I have always loved that style of guitar and, in fact, long ago played in altered tunings as a result of an early strong John Fahey influence. (Granted, Fahey's music tends to be more basic than the style you describe.) However, since being bitten by jazz, I have eschewed any tuning except standard based on a need for musical literacy. At this point, I enjoy the modern fingerstyle players strictly as a listener, and do not pursue it as a player. I know this doesn't answer your question. Maybe if I were much younger and in my current headspace, I would attempt to become musically literate in at least one altered tuning. I believe Pierre Bensusan, who plays in DADGAD only, knows the neck in that tuning as well as anyone knows it in standard.

[Skip Ellis]

I agree and, at 78, it's a little late to learn a whole new fingerboard. I have found a few pieces arranged for standard tuning but the sound of those open strings in DADGAD and CGDGCD (Orkney - check out Stephen Wake) are part of the lure of those tunings. I can play the notes as they are on the page in standard tuning, but the feeling is just not the same. It also seems that, if one is literate in these tunings, some of the tunes are quite easy to play.

[RJVB]

How about learning a score typesetting program so you can make a "transposing" version of the scores you'd like to play, so you can just place your fingers as if you were playing in standard tuning. You'll only have to get used to hearing something other than what's written but AFAICT that's only hard when you have absolute hearing.

[AllanAllen]

Seems to me that you're thinking about open tunings the wrong way. You play to their limitations, don't take what you know about guitar and force it into DADGAD, find the 3 or 4 licks in there and exploit those. Like Elmore James and open D.

[pauln]

...only hard when you have absolute hearing.

If you meant "perfect pitch", there's no such thing, not even logically.
Did you mean relative pitch or something else?

[Jimmy Smith]

You have 2 choices: 1. Learn the new tunings. 2. Adapt the tunes to standard.

Actually the 3rd choice would be give up lol, but I wouldn't be that pessimistic.

I don't see why you need a thread to help you with the complexity of the situation. :P Pick 1.

[RJVB]

If you meant "perfect pitch", there's no such thing, not even logically.

Yes, and I have to disagree at least on a functional level (I have no idea what "logical" means in this context). But if you want to call it "relative pitch fixed permanently to A=440Hz (and equal temperament)", fine, be my guest. I know several people who have that, and it doesn't help when you move away from those conditions.

[AllanAllen]

Ragman coming in hot with the hard truth.

[tbeltrans]

I have always loved that style of guitar and, in fact, long ago played in altered tunings as a result of an early strong John Fahey influence. (Granted, Fahey's music tends to be more basic than the style you describe.) However, since being bitten by jazz, I have eschewed any tuning except standard based on a need for musical literacy. At this point, I enjoy the modern fingerstyle players strictly as a listener, and do not pursue it as a player. I know this doesn't answer your question. Maybe if I were much younger and in my current headspace, I would attempt to become musically literate in at least one altered tuning. I believe Pierre Bensusan, who plays in DADGAD only, knows the neck in that tuning as well as anyone knows it in standard.

This is the response I would have written. Since FourOnSix already did it, I am just adding my +1.

Tony

[RJVB]

Ragman coming in hot with the hard truth.

And with the wrong foot out of bed?

This is the response I would have written. Since FourOnSix already did it, I am just adding my +1.

Wondering: how different is re-learning the neck for a different tuning than relearning it for a tenor or bass guitar? I played viola for a while besides violin, and the toughest part was switching between keys, not between instruments. Of course the difference was just 1 string and the mental switch restricted to "just play everything 1 string up (and with fingers spread a bit more). On guitar I notice that my main difficulty when in drop-D is to change my fingering on the fly, not so much knowing where a note is on the fretboard. Of course that too is just a single string.

[tbeltrans]

And with the wrong foot out of bed?



Wondering: how different is re-learning the neck for a different tuning than relearning it for a tenor or bass guitar? I played viola for a while besides violin, and the toughest part was switching between keys, not between instruments. Of course the difference was just 1 string and the mental switch restricted to "just play everything 1 string up (and with fingers spread a bit more). On guitar I notice that my main difficulty when in drop-D is to change my fingering on the fly, not so much knowing where a note is on the fretboard. Of course that too is just a single string.

The way I learned my way around the guitar fretboard was a method recommended by Ted Greene in his book "Chord Chemistry". Pick a note at random and find it along each string, starting with the lowest occurrence of that note and ending at the highest and then retracing your steps back down to the lowest.

This also worked when I wanted to learn my way around the 7 string.

From what I have read over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum where open/altered tunings are popular, many folks take advantage of the disorientation of a new tuning to get out of their muscle memory ruts to explore new sounds.

Martin Simpson had a DVD on opening tunings in which he presented a means of getting around in multiple tunings through finding intervals. That may work for some, but I never seemed to get on with it.

I attended a seminar with Pierre Bensusan back in the early 80s. He talked at length about DADGAD and how he felt that players should pick a tuning and stick with it instead of returning all the time. He said he could play in any key using DADGAD because he had been using it exclusively for so long.

So, in the end, it seems to me there are several approaches from sticking strictly with standard tuning to sticking strictly with some other tuning, to variations between these two points. I always come back to the concept that each individual has to find his or her own way to get the music out.

Tony

[pingu]

Hi Skip,
this may or may not be of help

I’ve learned my whole guitar life
in EADGBE and know the shapes
ok ….
(I’m not saying I’m any good)
———————
I like Joni Mitchell’s sound
so I’m playing around with a couple of her open chord tunings
they are very beautiful for playing in that style

but i only use them for that specific
situation / style / those tunes

it becomes another instrument
and I wouldn’t try to improvise with those tunings ….

bon voyage